Putter alignment?

[Bulls9999]

Has anyone benefited from 'putter alignment' as advertised at Golf Galaxy?

I was just wondering. My son has been missing some putts from short range recently (just skimming by the hole) and was wondering if its whether he's reading the correct line, putting online, or if his putter alignment is off. After watching an episode on the Golf Channel, they were showing some stop action footage of sideways shots of putting whereby even the loft of the putter can have an effect on how the ball starts out (smooth roll or hops) and affect whether it takes the intended line or not.

[JPsuff]

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Well, assuming that someone swings the putter like a machine would, with the same exact motion every single time, then I suppose that there's some merit to "putter alignment".

But putting isn't about hitting the ball like a machine. There are nuances in putting which involve manipulating the face to open or closed, striking the ball on the toe or the heel, raising the putter so as to strike the ball with the lower portion of the putter face and so on. That being the case (at least as far as the way I putt) I can't see what an "alignment" would do for me.

It may work for somone who is meticulous about repeating the same stoke each time but in my humble opinion, people who are more concerned about mechanics than results tend to be poor putters anyway, so aligning the putter might make them feel better, but I doubt it would serve to significantly improve anything.


-JP

[Bigvivec]

What is this service you speak of? Is it a putter fitting?

[Bulls9999]

Here, they have it on their web site.

Putter Fitting at Golf Galaxy

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

What is this service you speak of? Is it a putter fitting?

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Here, they have it on their web site.

Putter Fitting at Golf Galaxy

Well, as JP alluded to, you could probably get used to using a bent pipe to putt, but I think that for 20 bucks and in this day and age of fitting a club to a player how can you go wrong...I think it is an excellent idea and will if nothing else reinforce in the young player that is your son proper setup angles and what exaclty you ought to see happening when standing over the ball...if there was one nearby I would have it done as well...

Originally Posted by JPsuff

.


Well, assuming that someone swings the putter like a machine would, with the same exact motion every single time, then I suppose that there's some merit to "putter alignment".

But putting isn't about hitting the ball like a machine. There are nuances in putting which involve manipulating the face to open or closed, striking the ball on the toe or the heel, raising the putter so as to strike the ball with the lower portion of the putter face and so on. That being the case (at least as far as the way I putt) I can't see what an "alignment" would do for me.

It may work for somone who is meticulous about repeating the same stoke each time but in my humble opinion, people who are more concerned about mechanics than results tend to be poor putters anyway, so aligning the putter might make them feel better, but I doubt it would serve to significantly improve anything.


-JP

Normally I am right there with you on your posts...you lost me on this one...I get what you are saying about nuance and feel...so much is important in good putting (which has escaped me currently BTW) that is not covered in a straightforward iron byron approach...but to say that someone ought not be fitted for clubs as it would detract from "feel" is as Mike Tyson would say "discombobulatingly ludricous"...mechanics are not the be all end all of good putting, but as in every part of the golf game, good mechanics are prized and valued...

With all the trial and error tinkering that you do I am suprised that you wouldn't support what could amount to an additional edge in the putting game...it won't put the ball in the hole, but how can learning that you are most comfortable and hold you balance easiest with a certain lie angle and shaft length consititute forsaking putting nuance and becoming a slave to mechanics?

[Bulls9999]

Thanks. I feel that way too...can't go to McD's for less than $20 anymore, and $19 is change now a days. I was hoping to hear if anyone has used it and noticed any benefit, but I would think just on the idea of it pointing out what someone may be doing wrong and starting from there....would help....even if 1 stroke per round (can't tell you how many times my son has come short by that magical 1-stroke margin).

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

Well, as JP alluded to, you could probably get used to using a bent pipe to putt, but I think that for 20 bucks and in this day and age of fitting a club to a player how can you go wrong...I think it is an excellent idea and will if nothing else reinforce in the young player that is your son proper setup angles and what exaclty you ought to see happening when standing over the ball...if there was one nearby I would have it done as well...

Normally I am right there with you on your posts...you lost me on this one...I get what you are saying about nuance and feel...so much is important in good putting (which has escaped me currently BTW) that is not covered in a straightforward iron byron approach...but to say that someone ought not be fitted for clubs as it would detract from "feel" is as Mike Tyson would say "discombobulatingly ludricous"...mechanics are not the be all end all of good putting, but as in every part of the golf game, good mechanics are prized and valued...

With all the trial and error tinkering that you do I am suprised that you wouldn't support what could amount to an additional edge in the putting game...it won't put the ball in the hole, but how can learning that you are most comfortable and hold you balance easiest with a certain lie angle and shaft length consititute forsaking putting nuance and becoming a slave to mechanics?

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

With all the trial and error tinkering that you do I am suprised that you wouldn't support what could amount to an additional edge in the putting game...it won't put the ball in the hole, but how can learning that you are most comfortable and hold you balance easiest with a certain lie angle and shaft length consititute forsaking putting nuance and becoming a slave to mechanics?

Because putting is not like a regular shot wherein a more or less standard setup, takeaway, downswing, throughswing is employed.

Putting is a bit like shooting free throws. First, you need to have a natural aptitude for doing so and if that aptitude does not exist, then all the fittings in the world aren't going to help. But assuming one has the ability then the rest is feel. As I mentioned, striking a putt is more about feel and sensing what needs to happen than anything else and as such manipulation of the putter is common. And if one adjusts the putter to accommodate subtle variances and vagaries in a green, then the "fitting" is compromised anyway.

Pick a putter that feels good in your hands, strike a few putts with it and if they feel good as well, then you're "fitted". Everything else is imagination, feel and touch.


It's not the cost (20 bucks is certainly no big deal) but to me it seems rather pointless and sounds like yet another gimmick to raise the hopes of the putting impaired as well as squeezing a few more shekels from the golfing public.


But if you're convinced it'll work for you, then knock yourself out!


-JP

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Because putting is not like a regular shot wherein a more or less standard setup, takeaway, downswing, throughswing is employed.

Putting is a bit like shooting free throws. First, you need to have a natural aptitude for doing so and if that aptitude does not exist, then all the fittings in the world aren't going to help. But assuming one has the ability then the rest is feel. As I mentioned, striking a putt is more about feel and sensing what needs to happen than anything else and as such manipulation of the putter is common. And if one adjusts the putter to accommodate subtle variances and vagaries in a green, then the "fitting" is compromised anyway.


Pick a putter that feels good in your hands, strike a few putts with it and if they feel good as well, then you're "fitted". Everything else is imagination, feel and touch.


It's not the cost (20 bucks is certainly no big deal) but to me it seems rather pointless and sounds like yet another gimmick to raise the hopes of the putting impaired as well as squeezing a few more shekels from the golfing public.


But if you're convinced it'll work for you, then knock yourself out!


-JP

I'm not buying your argument...I am convinced that there is a way for every club to feel better in your hands than one that you just pick off the rack...sure you could find a putter that would do the job off the rack...but what if you could make it better? One size fits all is a myth...make it easier to shoot the free throws...

I beg to differ about putting not being like a regular shot...do you set up differently over the ball on various putting shots, or do you take a similar stance every time over the ball? If it is the latter, which would lump you with 99% of the golfing public, why wouldn't a putter that had optimal lenght, weighting, balance and lie angle help?


And what about all the natrual aptitude stuff??!?!?!? Please JP, defending an argument against being fitted by telling all those who currently struggle with the flatstick that they should just hang it up because they don't have "it"?!?!? You aren't making sense on this one...

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

I'm not buying your argument...I am convinced that there is a way for every club to feel better in your hands than one that you just pick off the rack...sure you could find a putter that would do the job off the rack...but what if you could make it better? One size fits all is a myth...make it easier to shoot the free throws...

I beg to differ about putting not being like a regular shot...do you set up differently over the ball on various putting shots, or do you take a similar stance every time over the ball? If it is the latter, which would lump you with 99% of the golfing public, why wouldn't a putter that had optimal lenght, weighting, balance and lie angle help?


And what about all the natrual aptitude stuff??!?!?!? Please JP, defending an argument against being fitted by telling all those who currently struggle with the flatstick that they should just hang it up because they don't have "it"?!?!? You aren't making sense on this one...

So what are you telling me?

That if someone is struggling with the flagstick a fitted putter is suddenly going to turn them into Ben Crenshaw? You said it before: "...you could probably get used to using a bent pipe to putt."

And why is that true? Because if someone "CAN" putt, then they can do so with just about anything. I play the drums. I have played in studios with absolute garbage for drums, but I can still make them sound good because I can play. Naturally, a custom set of drums built to my liking will sound better, but the rhythm won't be any different because either you have rhythm or you don't.

As far as my setup is concerned, I generally putt from an open stance (think: Jack Nicklaus). But sometimes, depending on how a putt feels, I'll pull my right foot back to a closed position, or sometimes I'll square up altogether. Sometimes I'll strike a putt on the toe or the heel and sometimes I'll purposely decelerate.

That's what I mean by feel.

I've putted that way all of my life and I'm quite content with my overall success. As far as "off the rack" putters are concerned, there are a whole host of sizes, shapes and lengths to choose from. There are putters with offsets, or with the shaft tilted forward, or tilted backward. Some are very upright while others are set very flat.

Given all that there is to choose from I find it hard to believe that someone couldn't find a putter they'd feel good about. And yes, I occasionally add some tape to a putter because everything fits well except it feels too light, so if that constitutes "fitting" then I'm guilty. But I don't change anything else about a putter, so the idea of lead tape passing for customization is a bit of a reach.

Like I said before, for twenty bucks, go get fitted if it will make you happy. But don't expect miracles and don't expect to drop your per-round putt count to drastically decline either. Personally, I believe that if a person has what it takes to be a good putter, then they'd be successful with a Croquet mallet or a wood axe.

You eedah goss it, o' you ain't!


-JP

[Bigvivec]

It reminds me of a story along the lines of the importance or lack thereof of equipment...to prove a point to his wife who was complaining that her clubs were no good and wanted a new set, grandpa took grandma's clubs that had been fitted for her and went out and shot his age, a 69...

Sure, if you can play, you can play with anything...but IMO, there is always something that can be done to a club that comes off the rack that can make it just that much better for an individual except for rare cases...

Again, I find it amusing that a guy who is so finicky about his clubs that he grinds his own wedges, softsteps irons and changes driver and 3 wood shafts like bedsheets would be so stubbornly against a putter fitting...unless it was just being stubborn for stubborn's sake...because I will venture that you could play just as well with clubs off the rack as it were and forget about the tinkering...but I understand, as I am a tinkerer myself, and I enjoy the process of experimenting with differing shaft/grip/head/length/weight combination and am convinced that the club in the end of the process performs better for me...but for whatever reason, perhaps including being painted into a corner, you have decided to be against putter customization....

Soft step away my friend...

[tmtp]

I had my putter fitted for me through the Taylor Made performance lab. I definitely noticed that there was a increase in distance control, mainly because they discovered that I needed a little less loft on the face due to keeping my hands behind the ball. As a result of this, I was able to see, through super slow motion cameras, the ball take a big hop at impact and two smaller bounces before the ball started rolling. After the subtle adjustment, the ball took a much smaller hop and then started rolling much faster, this made it easier to control how far it went, especially on longer putts where I had to hit the ball a bit harder. A good way to see this is if you go to the practice green when there is still dew on it, hit a couple of putts and look at the water trail and see how far the ball goes before it starts rolling.

So I guess to answer the question, yes I believe that a putter fitting is beneficial. I agree with BigViv, any club that is fitted to you will have a performance advantage over a club that is not fitted for you (assuming you are not one of the straight OTR guys).

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by tmtp

I had my putter fitted for me through the Taylor Made performance lab. I definitely noticed that there was a increase in distance control, mainly because they discovered that I needed a little less loft on the face due to keeping my hands behind the ball. As a result of this, I was able to see, through super slow motion cameras, the ball take a big hop at impact and two smaller bounces before the ball started rolling. After the subtle adjustment, the ball took a much smaller hop and then started rolling much faster, this made it easier to control how far it went, especially on longer putts where I had to hit the ball a bit harder.

Or you could do what I do and simply move the ball a tiny bit further back in your stance on long putts which accomplishes the exact same thing.

And why is this true?

Because of my basic setup which is quite open. My normal setup does not lend itself to generating a whole lot of power but is rather geared more for overall control. Consequently, when I need to add a bit of punch to a long putt, I have to bring the ball further back in my stance in order to create the power I need which illustrates my point in this argument - that a "fitted" putter will only work if the player's swing remains constant and unchanging.

In my case, I move ball position, stance and body angle so frequently that a fitting would be pointless for someone like me. What would I use as a benchmark or an index point? And how does all of that carefully thought-out geometry change when I change my stance or ball position?

I didn't say that fitting was a bad idea, I just said that fitting wouldn't work for me and would be rather pointless because I'm always changing my setup to suit the situation. As for my "regular" clubs, that's a whole 'nother issue. With the "full-swing" clubs, you're looking for consistency and an overall feel that doesn't vary from club to club because the overall setup doesn't vary. As far as soft-stepping (or hard-stepping) that's stricly about feel. Soft-stepping simply offers the feeling of a bit more flexibility in the tip section without altering the overall flex of the shaft.

And the best way to describe wedge grinds is to draw an analogy to a well worn and very comfortable pair of shoes. The heels, the soles and the insoles all feel comfy because the sharp edges and pinch points have all worn to fit your foot. Grinding a wedge is an attempt to get that comfy feeling in a golf club.

But all of that has to do with feel. My lofts and lies are fitted to me and my game as are my shaft flexes. But when it comes to a putter - at least in my case - I change the conditions with it so often that a fitting would be a waste of time.


-JP

[tmtp]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Or you could do what I do and simply move the ball a tiny bit further back in your stance on long putts which accomplishes the exact same thing.

And why is this true?

Because of my basic setup which is quite open. My normal setup does not lend itself to generating a whole lot of power but is rather geared more for overall control. Consequently, when I need to add a bit of punch to a long putt, I have to bring the ball further back in my stance in order to create the power I need which illustrates my point in this argument - that a "fitted" putter will only work if the player's swing remains constant and unchanging.

In my case, I move ball position, stance and body angle so frequently that a fitting would be pointless for someone like me. What would I use as a benchmark or an index point? And how does all of that carefully thought-out geometry change when I change my stance or ball position?

I didn't say that fitting was a bad idea, I just said that fitting wouldn't work for me and would be rather pointless because I'm always changing my setup to suit the situation. As for my "regular" clubs, that's a whole 'nother issue. With the "full-swing" clubs, you're looking for consistency and an overall feel that doesn't vary from club to club because the overall setup doesn't vary. As far as soft-stepping (or hard-stepping) that's stricly about feel. Soft-stepping simply offers the feeling of a bit more flexibility in the tip section without altering the overall flex of the shaft.

And the best way to describe wedge grinds is to draw an analogy to a well worn and very comfortable pair of shoes. The heels, the soles and the insoles all feel comfy because the sharp edges and pinch points have all worn to fit your foot. Grinding a wedge is an attempt to get that comfy feeling in a golf club.

But all of that has to do with feel. My lofts and lies are fitted to me and my game as are my shaft flexes. But when it comes to a putter - at least in my case - I change the conditions with it so often that a fitting would be a waste of time.


-JP

Moving the ball around is not very good for overall consistency. Being left eye dominant, it benefits me greatly to have the ball beneath my left eye when putting, if I hae the ability to get my club adjusted so that it performs well for me, why should I change my approach? I would much rather not have to think about where the ball is going to be in my stance when I can just get over it and hit the ball the same for a three footer or a thirty footer.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by tmtp

Moving the ball around is not very good for overall consistency. Being left eye dominant, it benefits me greatly to have the ball beneath my left eye when putting, if I hae the ability to get my club adjusted so that it performs well for me, why should I change my approach? I would much rather not have to think about where the ball is going to be in my stance when I can just get over it and hit the ball the same for a three footer or a thirty footer.

OK, let's draw another analogy.

Let's take pool for example. I am an excellent pool player. I've won tournaments and I can hold my own with the best of them. Now I can think of at least four different setups used in stroking a cue ball; a finger bridge, a knuckle bridge, a thumb bridge or just using my fingers to guide the cue as it rests on a rail.

The basic stroke is the same, but the setups are different. That's because there are instances in pool wherein a standard finger bridge is either not feasable or desireable, so something other than a "standard" setup has to be used. As far as cues are concerned, I can run a table just as easily using a $1,200 Balabushka or some fiberglass piece of junk in a barroom. As long as the tip is good, and the weight feels right (for me about 20 - 21 ounces) the rest doesn't matter. Sure, a custom made cue feels better and I'll admit that that may inspire more confidence, but it's still just about feel, not that the custom cue actually plays any better.

So, I do the same thing with putting. I set up based upon how my body feels as I stand over the ball and I'll make slight adjustments and changes to my setup until I feel comfortable over that particular putt. So once again, for me, a custom fitted putter would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot.


-JP

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

OK, let's draw another analogy.

Let's take pool for example. I am an excellent pool player. I've won tournaments and I can hold my own with the best of them. Now I can think of at least four different setups used in stroking a cue ball; a finger bridge, a knuckle bridge, a thumb bridge or just using my fingers to guide the cue as it rests on a rail.

The basic stroke is the same, but the setups are different. That's because there are instances in pool wherein a standard finger bridge is either not feasable or desireable, so something other than a "standard" setup has to be used. As far as cues are concerned, I can run a table just as easily using a $1,200 Balabushka or some fiberglass piece of junk in a barroom. As long as the tip is good, and the weight feels right (for me about 20 - 21 ounces) the rest doesn't matter. Sure, a custom made cue feels better and I'll admit that that may inspire more confidence, but it's still just about feel, not that the custom cue actually plays any better.

So, I do the same thing with putting. I set up based upon how my body feels as I stand over the ball and I'll make slight adjustments and changes to my setup until I feel comfortable over that particular putt. So once again, for me, a custom fitted putter would be about as useful as a chocolate teapot.


-JP

Whatever you say JP...but I for one try to eliminate the variables by setting up to putt the same every time, only varying the length of the swing, and I take your comments with a two pound grain of salt, as the rest of your set resembles the $1,200 Balabushka rather than the fiberglass barroom stick...