Golf Forum - Golf Rewound is the Family Friendly Golf Forum and Discussion Group  

Go Back   Golf Forum - Golf Rewound is the Family Friendly Golf Forum and Discussion Group > Gear Gossip > The Club Doctors
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

The Club Doctors For those who want to discuss or would like advice on club making, club repair and/or fitting.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2009, 02:54 PM
Bulls9999's Avatar
Bulls9999 Bulls9999 is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,829
Carbon steel for forged heads

OK, so I'm starting to look at various forged clubs, and I'm seeing all kinds of steel numbers (800, 900, 1020 carbon steel, etc). From some of the buyers comments, I see there's steel that's so soft (for feel) that it even dents easy. I've seen so many different steel ratings for various club heads, I can't keep it straight without a spread sheet.

Does anyone have a handy dandy article describing various kinds of steel used for forged heads and advantages/disadvantages?
__________________
[p.s. - I'm not shouting; I just like to format and highlight]
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2009, 08:21 PM
JPsuff's Avatar
JPsuff JPsuff is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,707
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

.


I can't speak to the different grades of steel used in clubhead manufacture, but there are some basics about steel in general which are universal.

First, carbon steel is just steel which uses carbon as an alloying agent. It's cheap and malleable and that's what makes it a great material for golf clubs. A lot of the numbers used to describe steel are references to alloys and/or the percentages in which they're used. Common alloys besides carbon are chromium, vanadium, tungsten, molybdenum and others.

The basic rule of thumb as far as carbon steel goes is that the higher the amount of carbon used in the alloying process, the harder the steel is overall. Wedges are often made from very low carbon steel (also called mild steel) and are very susceptible to nicks and dents and will rust quickly if the heads are not plated or lacquered, but they "feel" great when they contact a ball. Regular irons often have a bit more carbon in their steel to make them more durable and more able to hold their specs (loft and lie), which can often change through repeated use over time. All carbon steel heads are forged. With carbon steel, lofts and lies can easily be adjusted (often and by as much as 4 to 6 degrees) by simply bending the hosel of the clubhead.

Cast clubheads are all made from stainless steel which is extremely hard by virtue of its alloying process and though I don't know too many specific numbers for stainless, I do know that the two most common types for cast clubheads are 431 and 17-4 (with 17-4 being a bit harder than 431).
Lofts and lies can be adjusted to some extent with stainless steel, but only by a couple of degrees at best and in many cases the hosel needs to be heated in order to allow for an adjustment otherwise the hosel may break from trying to bend it. This has more to do with the clubs being cast than it has to do with them being made of stainless steel because unlike forged steel, cast steel (of any type) has no "grain" and thus very little tensile strength.


Anyway, that's what I know and I hope it helps.



-JP
__________________
MY TOOLBOX ---
DRIVER: TM R7 425 TP
3-WOOD: Nike SQ3+
HYBRID/4-WOOD: Nike CPR/NIKE SQ
IRONS (2-PW): Snake Eyes 600B
WEDGES: 51 & 55 deg. Snake Eyes 655TM
PUTTER: Odyssey Dual Force II #2


____________________________________________
I worry about my judgment when anything I believe in or do regularly begins to be accepted by the American public.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2009, 09:18 PM
Bigvivec's Avatar
Bigvivec Bigvivec is offline
Here kitty kitty...
Grand Slam
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bali, Indonesia
Posts: 6,925
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

The 1020, 125 and 1030s refer to forged clubs...I believe that 1020 is on the softer side...all forged clubs will ding and you should check you lies and lofts fairly often esp. if you practice off of mats...

The 8000's refer to cast clubs like vokeys...they are harder steel and more resistant to dings and wear...
__________________
“Statistics are like miniskirts: they give you good ideas, but hide the most important things.” Ebbe Skovdahl

Cobra ZL 9.5* Fubuki 73 xstiff
Exotics CB2 15* prolaunch blue fwy stiff
Exotics CB1 18* fuji pro95 xstiff
TM Rescue dual 22* diamana blue hy stiff
Bridgestone J36 cb 4-pw TT black gold +1" American standard stiff
Nomadwrx vokey 52* & 58* s400 +1"...raw
Bettinardi bbx 34"
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2009, 09:18 PM
Bigvivec's Avatar
Bigvivec Bigvivec is offline
Here kitty kitty...
Grand Slam
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bali, Indonesia
Posts: 6,925
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

The 1020, 125 and 1030s refer to forged clubs...I believe that 1020 is on the softer side...all forged clubs will ding and you should check you lies and lofts fairly often esp. if you practice off of mats...

The 8000's refer to cast clubs like vokeys...they are harder steel and more resistant to dings and wear...
__________________
“Statistics are like miniskirts: they give you good ideas, but hide the most important things.” Ebbe Skovdahl

Cobra ZL 9.5* Fubuki 73 xstiff
Exotics CB2 15* prolaunch blue fwy stiff
Exotics CB1 18* fuji pro95 xstiff
TM Rescue dual 22* diamana blue hy stiff
Bridgestone J36 cb 4-pw TT black gold +1" American standard stiff
Nomadwrx vokey 52* & 58* s400 +1"...raw
Bettinardi bbx 34"
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2009, 06:18 PM
OnePutt OnePutt is offline
Senior Member
U.S. Open Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora Colorado
Posts: 2,212
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

First, carbon steel is just steel which uses carbon as an alloying agent
Not sure where you got your information, but ALL steel contains carbon. If there wasn't ANY carbon in it, it would be IRON. Iron plus Carbon, makes Steel.
And not all stainless steel alloys are hard, In fact, most stainless steel to too soft to make a decent knife out of it. That's wny almost all top quality knifes are made of high carbon steel and not stainless.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2009, 09:22 PM
JPsuff's Avatar
JPsuff JPsuff is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 3,707
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

.

Once again, the two most common types of stainless steel used in golf club manufacture are 17-4 and 431, both of which are very hard steels compared to the mild steel most commonly used in forged irons.

The phrase "Carbon Steel" is mostly used as a marketing buzz word because it sounds technical in much the same way as "Carbon Fiber" sounds more technical than simply "graphite", even though graphite IS carbon. But any type of steel has to contain carbon otherwise it isn't steel and the more carbon in the steel, the harder the steel.

Most stainless steel contains high amounts of chromium and nickel along with varying trace amounts of other alloying ingredients. 17-4 is among the hardest steel alloys followed by 431 which is considerably softer while still offering the corrosion resistance stainless steel is known for. 303 stainless is also used in irons and wedges but it does rust to some degree so even though it's technically stainless steel, it behaves more like mild steel.

The ultimate hardness of any steel is up to the manufacturer. 17-4, for example, is commonly used in aerospace applications such as jet turbines while 431 is mostly used in fasteners, but both can be used for either application depending upon how much they're hardened. So while it's true that there are "soft" stainless steels, even the softest are not AS soft as the mild steels (actually medium steel) used in the irons and wedges referred to as "feel" clubs by many players.

Just to offer an idea of relative hardness, on the Brinell scale, 17-4 stainless has a hardness range of about 290 to as much as 420, 431 stainless ranges from 250 to 300, while C45 (what my Snake Eyes irons are made from) has a hardness ranging from 170 to 200.


-JP
__________________
MY TOOLBOX ---
DRIVER: TM R7 425 TP
3-WOOD: Nike SQ3+
HYBRID/4-WOOD: Nike CPR/NIKE SQ
IRONS (2-PW): Snake Eyes 600B
WEDGES: 51 & 55 deg. Snake Eyes 655TM
PUTTER: Odyssey Dual Force II #2


____________________________________________
I worry about my judgment when anything I believe in or do regularly begins to be accepted by the American public.

Last edited by JPsuff : 04-09-2009 at 10:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2009, 04:41 PM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPsuff View Post
.

(what my Snake Eyes irons are made from)
-JP
I was looking at Golfsmith and I'm thinking to try and build a club. You use Snake eyes and I'm wondering which one and how do you like them? I'm thinking to build me a 5 iron. Just to see how it is. I'm pretty good at making things and I want better clubs but I can't seem to even wrap my mind around what they cost.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:03 AM
OnePutt OnePutt is offline
Senior Member
U.S. Open Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora Colorado
Posts: 2,212
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

All of the SnakeEyes iron heads are good, it just depends on what type of a set of irons you need. The forges 675 series is very good, but not as forgiviing as the cast Viper irons. If you want to be able to work the ball with your irons. look at the 675 series. If you don't need to be able to work the ball, then look at the Viper heads. Also check out theire Closeout section online, in case one of their older models fits your needs. That's where I go when I'm looking for a new fairway wood or a good deal on a not quite new driver head.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2009, 11:26 AM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnePutt View Post
All of the SnakeEyes iron heads are good, it just depends on what type of a set of irons you need. The forges 675 series is very good, but not as forgiviing as the cast Viper irons. If you want to be able to work the ball with your irons. look at the 675 series. If you don't need to be able to work the ball, then look at the Viper heads. Also check out theire Closeout section online, in case one of their older models fits your needs. That's where I go when I'm looking for a new fairway wood or a good deal on a not quite new driver head.
...work the ball...man I just want to hit the ball! Forgiving sounds good to me. I'll check into the viper. Do you have any suggestions on a graphite shaft to match that head? reg. flex and all that. Thanks a bunch OnePutt!
__________________
2013 PGA Pick Em Champ
2013 Open Pick Em Champ
2012 US Open Pick Em Champ
2011 NFL Pick Em Champ

Life's hard. It's even harder if yur stoopud. - Arc 2010
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2009, 12:11 PM
OnePutt OnePutt is offline
Senior Member
U.S. Open Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora Colorado
Posts: 2,212
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

I don't recommend graphite shafts for irons, unless the set is for someone with a problem with strength, or for a small woman. There is a very good reason, 99 percent of all the tour golfers are using steel shafts in their irons. Steel shafts are better. You CAN get good graphite shafts for irons, but you will have to expect to pay $30 or more for each one. And when you can get excellent steel shafts for around $11 each, why would anyone want to spend more for graphite if they don't have to?

But; if you really want to go with graphite, let me know and I'll look in the catalog and see what Golfsmith has to offer. Give me a price range is you can.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2009, 01:06 PM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

I sent you a PM. That way when I ask something stupid it doesn't get seen by everyone here. I think I'm fooling most of them...
__________________
2013 PGA Pick Em Champ
2013 Open Pick Em Champ
2012 US Open Pick Em Champ
2011 NFL Pick Em Champ

Life's hard. It's even harder if yur stoopud. - Arc 2010
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2009, 01:39 PM
GolfSavage's Avatar
GolfSavage GolfSavage is offline
That wasn't chicken!
Grand Slam
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sarasota, FL
Posts: 4,531
Send a message via AIM to GolfSavage Send a message via Yahoo to GolfSavage
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Arc View Post
I sent you a PM. That way when I ask something stupid it doesn't get seen by everyone here. I think I'm fooling most of them...
No, you're just fitting in!
__________________
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.


Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2009, 04:31 PM
OnePutt OnePutt is offline
Senior Member
U.S. Open Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora Colorado
Posts: 2,212
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

I sent you a reply to your PM. If you do decide to build one club as a test, I'd recommend you build either a 6 or shorter iron. Most amatuer golfers don't hit the long irons very well, so I'd recommend building nothing over a 6 iron as a test club. I"d also recommend going with a good quality shaft, like the Dynamic Gold. That way you will know the shaft is a good one, and if you don't like the club, it's the head, not the shaft at fault.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2009, 05:43 PM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnePutt View Post
I sent you a reply to your PM. If you do decide to build one club as a test, I'd recommend you build either a 6 or shorter iron. Most amatuer golfers don't hit the long irons very well, so I'd recommend building nothing over a 6 iron as a test club. I"d also recommend going with a good quality shaft, like the Dynamic Gold. That way you will know the shaft is a good one, and if you don't like the club, it's the head, not the shaft at fault.
Too late. The 5's on the way. It'll be OK. I'm not too bad with the 5 iron. If I like the club I may try and build a set. Thanks!
__________________
2013 PGA Pick Em Champ
2013 Open Pick Em Champ
2012 US Open Pick Em Champ
2011 NFL Pick Em Champ

Life's hard. It's even harder if yur stoopud. - Arc 2010
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2009, 10:13 AM
OnePutt OnePutt is offline
Senior Member
U.S. Open Winner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora Colorado
Posts: 2,212
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

I'd be happy to build you a set if you decide you don't want to try building a set on your own. Enjoy the 5 iron when it comes in.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2009, 10:41 AM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnePutt View Post
I'd be happy to build you a set if you decide you don't want to try building a set on your own. Enjoy the 5 iron when it comes in.
That is a very generous offer. Truth is...if I ever do anything 100 % correct...it was probably an accident! Ha! If I like the club...that would be great. Thanks a bunch.
__________________
2013 PGA Pick Em Champ
2013 Open Pick Em Champ
2012 US Open Pick Em Champ
2011 NFL Pick Em Champ

Life's hard. It's even harder if yur stoopud. - Arc 2010
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2009, 06:08 PM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

The club is here! Man it feels good. It's got weight to it. I'll give it a try tomorrow. Hope I can wait...
__________________
2013 PGA Pick Em Champ
2013 Open Pick Em Champ
2012 US Open Pick Em Champ
2011 NFL Pick Em Champ

Life's hard. It's even harder if yur stoopud. - Arc 2010
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2009, 06:38 PM
Diane Diane is offline
Senior Member
Grand Slam
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,040
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Arc View Post
The club is here! Man it feels good. It's got weight to it. I'll give it a try tomorrow. Hope I can wait...
It's still early in CA - why not try it now?
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2009, 07:23 PM
Blue_Arc's Avatar
Blue_Arc Blue_Arc is offline
Senior Member
Claret Jug
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,618
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diane View Post
It's still early in CA - why not try it now?
Girl...I works hard for the money. I won't get out of here (work) till probably 7:30
I do sneak off the the range in the morning if I can but I don't have time for 2 trips in one day. Ha!
__________________
2013 PGA Pick Em Champ
2013 Open Pick Em Champ
2012 US Open Pick Em Champ
2011 NFL Pick Em Champ

Life's hard. It's even harder if yur stoopud. - Arc 2010
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2009, 09:37 PM
Diane Diane is offline
Senior Member
Grand Slam
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,040
Re: Carbon steel for forged heads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Arc View Post
Girl...I works hard for the money. I won't get out of here (work) till probably 7:30
I do sneak off the the range in the morning if I can but I don't have time for 2 trips in one day. Ha!
Ah - work - didn't take that into account. I just assumed you were doing nothing since you were posting here.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8
Copyright 2007 All Rights Reserved