Face angle iron adjustment...

[Bigvivec]

I have a problem that I am sure is equipment based…

I have two sets of irons…mp 14 muscle backs and mp 60 cavity backs…the 60s have slightly more offset and closed face angle than do the 14s, but on paper it is nearly the same…now here’s the issue…

For whatever reason, the balance on the 60s seems to return the face to the club in a more closed position than when I swing the 14s…this is why although I have consistently better distance control with the 60s, I play the 14s as the ball is much easier to hit straight and it doesn’t feel like I am fighting the club…I alternated between 6 irons from each set on the range today and had similar dispersions, only the 60s were 10 yards left of the 14s with similar stance, setup, aim point, grip and swing…and the 14s went where they were aimed…I put the two clubs on a table and allowed the heads to hang over the edge…the closure on the 60s was noticeable while the 14s were much more up and down…when I take my grip with the 60s it feels like if I square the face that the club is out of balance and awkward feeling, whereas the 14s are comfortable even in an open position…I have been fighting a hook this week as it is, which makes me a little hesitant to rush off to make any adjustments…

This was a big part of the reason that I fell out of love with them in the first place so it isn’t a new issue…In fact, when I first made the switch after buying the 14s on impulse, I noticed that while I did not make as consistenly clean contact with the 14s, hitting high and low on the face as well as heel to toe, distance loss was more than with the 60s (forgiveness defined), but the ball was much straighter and I was scoring better because of it…I have since learned how to hit the 14s, but comparing the two side by side, I have had the sinking feeling that though I hit the 14s well for the most part, that could be improved with a more forgiving iron if it only set up like the 14 which is easy to square and has a much more balanced feel…I always felt like I was fighting the 60 when trying to take even a weakened grip to make the face neutral to slightly open at address like I like it…the 60s are sweet clubs though, and in spite of this issue and the extra work and unease at address, they really take a bite out of the ball and I would like to literally get this straightened out…the heads are forged, so they ought to be able to bend them open…will this make them feel more balanced in a neutral position is the question…is this possible? I am not a club builder, but bending them so that the face is more open than they are now is what I’d like to do…is there something that I should consider before doing this? I am going to play the 60s over the next few days to confirm this balance thing, since I have a hybrid getting shafted (s300) that will be ready next Monday (Saturday probably, but I’m not in a rush) and will be going back to the shop then and can make it a package visit…anyone else experience this or have any suggestions?

[EddieC]

Interesting, I'll have to check my 60's against my 33's and see if I notice anything odd. For me I have trouble keeping the face of the 60's straight because I think the lie angle is plus 3 so the toe sits up a bit off of the ground and that to me, makes the balance feel a bit strange. If I shut the face, the club is evenly touching the ground from toe to heel. I'm use to playing them that way so not a huge deal for me, I'm not by any means in your league though carrying a 13 cap at the moment. I'm a draw player also, and fight the over draw on occasion. Are the lie angles of the 14's and 60's the same?

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by EddieC

Are the lie angles of the 14's and 60's the same?

That is a very good question and I would hazard to say no as the 14s are the Japanese edition and are shafted 1/2" shorter than American standard...I could try changing the lie angle on one club and see how that feels...

[straightshooter]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

I am not a club builder, but bending them so that the face is more open than they are now is what I’d like to do…is there something that I should consider before doing this?

If you square a bent-open clubface you will decrease the loft of the club.

And it sounds like you were closing the club 'as-is' already somewhere during your swing. So if* the bending fixes your current problem of inadvertently closing the club, the only main difference might be that you will now indeed hit your shot where you aim it. It sounds like a decent plan to me....

* .....but I don't know how big that 'if' is!

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by straightshooter

If you square a bent-open clubface you will decrease the loft of the club.

And it sounds like you were closing the club 'as-is' already somewhere during your swing. So if* the bending fixes your current problem of inadvertently closing the club, the only main difference might be that you will now indeed hit your shot where you aim it. It sounds like a decent plan to me....

* .....but I don't know how big that 'if' is!

The thing is when comparing two six irons side by side, the set with less bias (musclebacks) are just that...less biased...I am suprised that a so called "players" club like the mp 60 has so much bias, but it is there...I'd like to duplicate the feel of the muscleback, which, where the face is aligned the ball will go as opposed to the 60s where the face "wants" to close, requiring a holding off of the release, however slight, translating into a restricted swing which is ultimately less accurate, especially when translated to the other clubs which have their own degrees of bias...my goal is to get a bag set up that "feels" the same, requiring a minimum of manipulation or restriction throughout the set...getting closer, but these irons need bending or weighting to make them feel like the rest...otherwise I'll just go back to the muscleback which has the right feel, but less forgiveness in distance consistency...

[EddieC]

I laid the 60 and the 33 side by side on the ping pong table and looking at the sole they would appear to be the same. So all I can think is that the lie angle of your 60 versus the 14's is a little different looking top down.

[EddieC]

Another thought would be a new set....maybe a set of 32's or maybe even the new 67's, more like a muscle with a tad bit of forgivness. Just a thought.

[Bulls9999]

Isn't the lie angle issue between the 60's and 14's easy enough to identify by hitting off a board with tape on the soles of the irons? ... even masking tape and hit off a good size piece of wood (or hardpan ground)....should be able to tell if there's a difference in lie angle between the two or if your hitting on differently than the other.

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

That is a very good question and I would hazard to say no as the 14s are the Japanese edition and are shafted 1/2" shorter than American standard...I could try changing the lie angle on one club and see how that feels...