History of the Driver: Persimmon/Steel to Titanium to 460 cc heads

[titaniummd]

For those who have played with the early 1 woods made of wood, the early steel driver heads, and even the smaller titanium faced drivers:

Have you noticed a significant increase in distance since the use of 400+ cc drivers and even latest 460 cc heads?

If not distance, how has the newer driver made an impact on your game? Straighter shots, lower scores, lower handicaps?

I was just curious since it doesn't appear to be changing in the past 2 years much since the size of the head has been limited.

[wb4tjh]

In persimmon days, steel shafts were shorter than today's graphite shafts, so that accounts for the longer drives of today in my opinion. Actually, nothing feels and sounds as sweet or gives the control as well as persimmon. Put a modern persimmon head on a modern graphite shaft, and you have the best of both worlds. Try a Louisville Golf driver sometime. There's nothing magic about titanium...being so light, it allows larger club heads that have obviously larger sweet spots. So I would say the main thing I have gotten out of the modern 460cc titanium drivers is that they are easier to hit, but I think the modern persimmon is more accurate. I play both. I get a lot of chuckles out of the OEMs trying to make last year's driver obsolete with the "new" models they come out with every year. I think there is only so much they can do with the modern 460 titanium head. They can move the weight around, change the shape a bit, ect., but overall, they all have pretty much reached their peak technology, I think. The same goes for modern irons. But they have to convince you to buy the new models to stay in business. You can pick up some fabulous bargains on last year's models, or even models a couple of years old. I can't tell two cents worth of difference in most of them from the latest offerings.

[John]

I think the biggest difference in distance today is the ball. Today's golf ball is livelier than yesterday's golf ball. I don't think that equipment has made all that much difference in distance as much as it has in accuracy. Today's drivers allow players with poor to average skills to keep the ball in play more often than not, but distance is not the biggest issue.
I started playing with a set of hand me down laminated woods which consisted of a driver, a 21/2 wood and a 31/2 wood. The driver was damaged and was basically unplayable, so my driving club was the 21/2 wood. I could usually expect around 230 yds. or so from it off the tee with an occasional 250 or so. I went from that to a MacGregor M-95 persimmon driver and my distances went up to around 250 on a regular basis. In the late 80's I bought my first metal driver, a Taylor Made Burner Plus with a 9.5 degree loft and a Dynamic Gold steel shaft. I used that club all the way into the late 90's. I could hit that club upwards of 300 yards on a frequent basis, but my average drive was around 280 or so.
When I got into graphite and modern heads, I actually experienced a loss of distance and though I have what I believe is a good head and shaft combination today, I don't believe that there's any fundamental difference in distance and in fact my longest drives ever were hit with steel-shafted clubs. I do however see a marked difference in accuracy, especially on off center hits.
But I think the ball is the most responsible for distance. The reason I say that is because of the irons. I have used forged irons all of my golfing life and I can hit all of them an average of ten yards longer today than I could less than ten years ago. Since the clubs I use haven't changed at all, why has my distance with them increased? In the mid-90's, my average six iron distance was around 173 yards. Today, I hit a six iron an average of 184 yards. I have not changed anything significantly in ten years (other than being ten years older) but I'm about ten yards longer.
The only thing that has changed is the ball. I used to play the Tour 100 balata's but they stopped making them in the mid-90's and introduced the Pro V1's. When I started using them, I immediately noticed that my distances went up. And before anyone says that balata's were soft and all that, I used them when I could afford them, but I also used Maxfli's, Top Fites, or anything else I could find in the woods and my distances were basically the same with all of them. It was only after the Pro V1 and all of the other balls that followed when I started to notice the difference in distance.
My

[titaniummd]

So forgiveness is all that is gained with a bigger head. I think that any further improvement would be marginal then with clubs made beyond 2005. I see a trend of more graphite shafts able to change trajectory and distance to some degree, also.

[coralpro]

Straighter shots only. Graphite shafts were the biggest deal in distance gained but my longest drive still was with persimmon headed driver with steel shafts at close to 450 yds. That of course was with the wind hardpan roll to assist. I currently went back to my 320 cc 9 degree tour edge with stiff pro force 65 gold shaft because I didn't like the distance loss for the control gained with my 10 degree big bang 450 cc with aldila nv 65 stiff.

[GenErr]

I began playing in the early 60's, and my first woods were persimmon. Back then I don't remember too many options when buying a driver - stiff or regular steel shafts. In retrospect, there is no better feeling, or sound, in golf than hitting a persimmon driver on the "screws." Forgiveness? None.

When Taylor Made and Callaway came out with their metal drivers, there was a lot of improvement - not all attibuted to the size of the head. The ability to spread weight around the perimeter of the woods, and leave the body relatively weight-free made them easier to hit. However I think the big thing was the ability to offer higher lofts. I recently got rid of an old, original Taylor Made Pittsburgh Persimmon driver - I think it was around 11 degrees.

Graphite shafts have certainly helped. Different flexes, bend points, etc..., allow most of us to customize a head/shaft combo to minimize our swing deficiencies.

That being said - 45 years later I'm hitting the ball as long, and straighter than I ever have. That TM Burner HT, with standard OEM Fuji graphite shaft, launches the ball high, long, and usually straight.

I think its the combination of a number of factors that has allowed many golfers to hit their drivers today, who, back in the persimmon era may have struggled a bit off the tee.

My

[LockStock666]

I saw an ad' in my golf mag that you can still buy persimmon wooden drivers together with modern graphite shafts.

The natural wooden clubs do look beautiful, unlike the harsh - almost military styling these days, but I would find it hard to part with over $500 for something so old fashioned.

They also still make wooden putters which I think would be great for feel but again it was a lot of cash to part with.

[wb4tjh]

The natural wooden clubs do look beautiful, unlike the harsh - almost military styling these days, but I would find it hard to part with over $500 for something so old fashioned.
QUOTE]

I assure you, the Louisville Golf persimmons are NOT old fashioned. They are as modern a design as any tin cup sounding, overpriced, Red Chinese robot made, metal club out there. Their modern Niblick fairway woods have over 75% of their headweight BELOW the equator of the ball. NO modern metal fairway wood even comes close to that. There is NOTHING old fashioned about the way they get the ball off the ground. I have been playing my Niblicks for 5 years. Try one, and you will see. They are on sale, right now, too.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by wb4tjh

The natural wooden clubs do look beautiful, unlike the harsh - almost military styling these days, but I would find it hard to part with over $500 for something so old fashioned.
QUOTE]

I assure you, the Louisville Golf persimmons are NOT old fashioned. They are as modern a design as any tin cup sounding, overpriced, Red Chinese robot made, metal club out there. Their modern Niblick fairway woods have over 75% of their headweight BELOW the equator of the ball. NO modern metal fairway wood even comes close to that. There is NOTHING old fashioned about the way they get the ball off the ground. I have been playing my Niblicks for 5 years. Try one, and you will see. They are on sale, right now, too.

Well, no disrespect for Louisville, but they weight their clubs the same way that all wood-headed clubs have always been weighted; by boring a hole in the bottom of the club, pressing a hunk of lead into it and then putting the sole plate on. Later, when adjustments are made, additional lead in the form of lead powder is added either through a port designed into the sole plate, or by removing the sole plate and adding weight to a specific area by drilling a hole, adding the lead and then re-attaching the sole plate and finally checking the swingweight.

I like Louisville clubs, but I believe that a true persimmon headed club is a through-shafted club with a whipped hosel and that whipping is what signifies its craftsmanship and gives it its charm, as well as its authenticity. Just making a head out of persimmon and then boring a hole in its hosel to accept a metal sleeve into which a graphite shaft is inserted is not all that much different than any other driver or fairway wood made today, save for the material from which it's made .

It is entirely possible to make a through-bore wooden headed club using a modern graphite shaft and then whipping the shaft in place in the manner employed by clubmakers throughout history. But like everything else made today, ease of shaft removal and "changeability" must be placed over craftsmanship, which is why Louisville falls just short, in my opinion, with regard to true "traditional" standards. That's a shame, because they "almost" got it, otherwise.


-JP