Do we have it backward? Follow the clubhead?

[larryrsf]

I think the answer to early consistency for most developing amateurs may be the same answer that Lee Trevino, Alan Doyle, and likely Moe Norman and others with an unorthodox swing but almost 100% driving accuracy discovered (without taking lessons).

They all seem to simply focus on driving their clubhead through the ball and beyond like a hockey slapshot, passing the clubhead through a couple of croquet wickets a few inches apart. They just let their body do whatever it must to make that happen. No set stance, nor formal setup, not even a pause before swinging. They don't know or care what their body does. They laugh at those who tell them their movement is not conventional or "pretty." The ball goes straight if the clubhead does its thing.

So instead of trying to make their body do things, they focus on making the clubhead perform. They just do whatever seems natural to make that impact and beyond clubhead path happen! Exactly as when we throw a ball or other more "natural" athletic moves.

That works, BTW. I hit every fairway yesteday doing exactly that. I allowed myself to have NO thought of anything mechanical, nothing about the backswing, nothing about the downswing, just focusing on what path that clubhead was going to take AFTER the impact. I purposely just stepped up and hit it, little or no pause before I swung. I did all the mental preparation first, I could see that clubhead passing through the ball and for a few inches toward the target, then I just made it happen. Try it. It may work for you.


Larry

[JPsuff]

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I agree with you 100%.

Personally, I think that the golf swing has been micro-managed to death and it has become too rigid and too mechanical.

I learned the old fashioned way with an open stance, variable ball position and driving the club through the impact zone. That worked quite well for me over the years. In recent years though, I developed what I later realized was a rather lazy swing and I began hitting wildly. I decided (this past season) to try to "organize" my swing by trying a square setup and I worked on posture, grip, alignment and all the standard stuff. This was a complete failure. I could not develop any predictable consistency. I could hit great shots when everything worked, but getting it to work was difficult - especially with the driver which is a club I've always been able to hit well.

So, late in the season, on a whim, I decided to go back to my open stance and "ball where it feels right" setup and I suddenly started hitting everything I looked at. Apparently what had happened over the years is that I developed a cast in my swing and my grip was too much in my palms. So I kept my "new" grip (more in the fingers) and I pay more attention to my turn. So I guess I did learn something from my little experiment, but the rest is all feel now and my confidence has never been higher.

Alan Doyle has a very open stance and Lee Trevino's setup is often referred to as the "Anti-Hook Assembly". Like me, they had trouble clearing their hips from a more closed setup and the open stance basically allows the hips to clear without much thought or effort and that allows for a very pronounced and deliberate "push" through the impact zone.

Now my drives are screamin' again and my accuracy is back as well as my distance - all from chucking the whole "mechanical man" thing and going back to doing what I do best -- playing by feel.

Like they say, the only thing that matters is where the clubhead is six-inches before impact and six-inches afterwards. Everything else is just details.


-JP

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

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I agree with you 100%.

Personally, I think that the golf swing has been micro-managed to death and it has become too rigid and too mechanical.

I learned the old fashioned way with an open stance, variable ball position and driving the club through the impact zone. That worked quite well for me over the years. In recent years though, I developed what I later realized was a rather lazy swing and I began hitting wildly. I decided (this past season) to try to "organize" my swing by trying a square setup and I worked on posture, grip, alignment and all the standard stuff. This was a complete failure. I could not develop any predictable consistency. I could hit great shots when everything worked, but getting it to work was difficult - especially with the driver which is a club I've always been able to hit well.

So, late in the season, on a whim, I decided to go back to my open stance and "ball where it feels right" setup and I suddenly started hitting everything I looked at. Apparently what had happened over the years is that I developed a cast in my swing and my grip was too much in my palms. So I kept my "new" grip (more in the fingers) and I pay more attention to my turn. So I guess I did learn something from my little experiment, but the rest is all feel now and my confidence has never been higher.

Alan Doyle has a very open stance and Lee Trevino's setup is often referred to as the "Anti-Hook Assembly". Like me, they had trouble clearing their hips from a more closed setup and the open stance basically allows the hips to clear without much thought or effort and that allows for a very pronounced and deliberate "push" through the impact zone.

Now my drives are screamin' again and my accuracy is back as well as my distance - all from chucking the whole "mechanical man" thing and going back to doing what I do best -- playing by feel.

Like they say, the only thing that matters is where the clubhead is six-inches before impact and six-inches afterwards. Everything else is just details.


-JP

Great Post!!!


It just happened that TGC had McClane analyzing Trevino's swing on yesterday. I had seen it before but this time I really listened for the differences between Trevino and others. They said he had the longest "flat spot" at the bottom of his swing--and that he seemed to "chase" the clubhead toward his target after impact.

I doubt at the time Trevino knew what his body actually did to produce that clubhead path--nor did he care until 30 years later they showed him videos and asked him to comment. Now he watches the video and notices that he drove his legs toward the target, etc. etc. Duh, of course. But what his body "did" is not important, what we can learn from is what his "intent" was, what was he "trying to do." His mind created that flat spot, his mind made him "chase" the clubhead after the ball was gone. And we can do it too.

So however we accomplish the same clubhead action is irrelevant. Just do it and enjoy consistent accurate golf.

Larry

[London_Geeza]

i actually agree, as whenever i am standing behind my 2nd ball on the tee after a bad hit, its just step up and whack it, and 8 times out of 10 it is down the middle and often long.
same thing after a really bad hole, on the next tee, it is just line up, look, whack, works most of the time. i have tried it from the start but often have a bad first hole doing it, and from there on, its back to the old routine, maybe i just need to really upset myself about something before teeing up to get more first hole birdies. ive always been an overthinking person about my golf swing, but it would seem that whenever i let my body do what it naturally can, no matter how good or bad, it gives better results. i know its a bit different from what the post states, its the same thinking.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by London_Geeza

i actually agree, as whenever i am standing behind my 2nd ball on the tee after a bad hit, its just step up and whack it, and 8 times out of 10 it is down the middle and often long.
same thing after a really bad hole, on the next tee, it is just line up, look, whack, works most of the time. i have tried it from the start but often have a bad first hole doing it, and from there on, its back to the old routine, maybe i just need to really upset myself about something before teeing up to get more first hole birdies. ive always been an overthinking person about my golf swing, but it would seem that whenever i let my body do what it naturally can, no matter how good or bad, it gives better results. i know its a bit different from what the post states, its the same thinking.

Speaking of Trevino, ha. He actually played like you describe (when you hit it good). He just walked up and almost hit it while still moving. He putted very quickly too. "Miss em' quick" was his comment, knowing that standing over any golf shot too often allows time for tension and second thoughts to spoil the result. That was the reason he talked almost continuously while playing.


Good stuff!

Larry

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Speaking of Trevino, ha. He actually played like you describe (when you hit it good). He just walked up and almost hit it while still moving. He putted very quickly too. "Miss em' quick" was his comment, knowing that standing over any golf shot too often allows time for tension and second thoughts to spoil the result. That was the reason he talked almost continuously while playing.


Good stuff!

Larry

True but Trevino had such finely honed muscle memory from years of hitting 100s of ball a day. I agree that this could work for everyone, but all it takes for most (me) is to "miss a 3 footer quick" and I scurry back to my old routine with my tail between my legs.

[JPsuff]

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I believe that "quick" works better because it takes the thinking out of hitting a shot and the more primal or instinctual processes take over.

Whenever I get "stuck" on a bad swing or I'm hitting bad shots at a range, for example, I just start hitting quickly. I'll pull a ball over, step into my address and immediately pull the trigger. I'll do this over and over - pull a ball over then hit it, pull a ball over, then hit it.

After about ten shots or so, I'm swinging naturally again and I'm hitting targets consistently. I do this to remind myself that I actually know how to do this and that whatever I've been fiddling with has got me all balled up in a knot and I need to get rid of whatever "swing thoughts" are floating around my head.

Once I've come back to earth and I've begun to swing the club like ME instead of whatever golf article I've got spinning around in my mind, I can then go back to grooving MY swing instead of someone else's.



Golf really is a simple game. It becomes complicated when we start THINKING about it.


-JP

[PA PLAYA]

I think there is waaay too emphasis on "how" and not enough emphasis on "what."

Golf has not gotten easier over the years, despite the incredible gains in equipment technology. We've got balls today that can fly up to 15-20% futher than those 60 years ago, yet the average scores of golfers then and golfers today are probably only a couple of percentage points difference. We have driver heads the size of watermelons, yet most have no more success finding the sweet spot on a 460cc driver today than they did with a sub 100cc persimmon.

We have computerized teaching software, super-slow-motion video cameras, digitally computerized fitting processes that can determine ideal launch and spin rates for every individual golfer, every training aid that one could possibly think of. Yet for whatever reasons, golfers today stink just as bad as they did half a century ago.

We have taken a very simple process, and complicated it to death.

You don't know how many times I've been playing on a golf course with storms approaching as I hit the back nine, and me and my playing partner decide to pick up the pace and get finished before they hit. Nearly every single time, I play better on those holes where we just stepped up to the shot (or the putt) and hit the ball without thinking about it. No 45 second pre-shot process, not over analyzing the wind, the lie, the swing, rather just hitting the ball to the target. I've had back nines of -3 or -4, just because I wasn't worried about anything but making good contact in the proper direction.

Why is that so successful? Because I don't have time to think about it. It becomes an act of natural reflex, instead of some type of complicated mechanical practice.

We struggle in golf because we are too educated sometimes. We lose sight of the most important thing -- hitting the ball properly with the face of the club. That ball has no idea that Jim Furyk or Allen Doyle is hitting it. It just reacts to the information given to it by the face of the club.

But I'm beginning to think that golf balls are smarter than humans! LOL....

Good topic.

[larryrsf]

"We lose sight of the most important thing -- hitting the ball properly with the face of the club. "

Exactly right. I think most of us would play better if we simply thought of nothing but passing the clubhead through the ball and beyond or of making divots, not hitting balls. Most us know how to make the clubhead do what we want it to--if only on a subconscious level. Just envision the path it should take through impact and try to make it happen without any thought of mechanical method. For me that meant forgetting about a full shoulder turn, a full backswing, weight shift, knees, hips, elbows, etc. It means simply focusing our entire attention on the foot of clubhead travel through impact.

Doing that I hit 28 fairways in the last 2 rounds, ALL of them. Most I even hit the side I wanted. Amazing. Simple works. Nothing else does, ha.

Larry

[London_Geeza]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Speaking of Trevino, ha. He actually played like you describe (when you hit it good). He just walked up and almost hit it while still moving. He putted very quickly too. "Miss em' quick" was his comment, knowing that standing over any golf shot too often allows time for tension and second thoughts to spoil the result. That was the reason he talked almost continuously while playing.


Good stuff!

Larry

i know how Trevino played, he was probably my favourite player of his day (im not old, i was just a kid ), the one i liked to see beat nicklaus when going head to head (although i was a big nicklaus fan too).
i actually cant say my style is anything like Trevino's, it is just the odd shot (when i dont care) after a bad hole. it is a bit late to start trying new things, but if i can just get in that mindset (it is usually a very angry one, where the club might just fall out of my hand and land 20yds away ) from the start to finish, i might actually have something going again. i dont often get into a discussion about golf tips and the golf swing, but this is something i think most people could try out on a few holes, and post there progress.