Stack and Tilt vs Trebuchet.

[Johneli]

Could someone please explain these two techniques and how they relate to one another? I've Googled them both until I'm blue in the face, and although they have some nice vids online, they really don't give detailed explanations of the mechanics and theory of either of them. I'm wondering if I already have some facets of each in my swing already. Are they valuable to any man's swing or are they just trendy? I would appreciate input from anyone who knows about them or has tried them personally. Thanks.

[deronsizemore]

Sorry, never heard of Trebuchet style of swing.

If you want some good info on stack and tilt though, Haddix Golf Swing Forum is a good forum. Denver Haddix uses it and teaches it (he's given me a few lessons) and he knows what he's talking about.

[Game Face]

Tiger doesn't use the S&T . . . why would a crazed Tiger fan be interested? . . .


Have you checked out the S&T thread we opened back in May?
There are a number of videos as well as some basic instruction from Golf Digest.

The New Stack & Tilt Swing


Beware . . . some S&T'ers chew tabackee...

[Bulls9999]

Here's the Golf Digest June article if anyone wants it:

Stack and Tilt: The New Tour Swing: Instruction: golfdigest.com

Stack and Tilt: The New Tour Swing: Instruction: golfdigest.com

In reading it more closely than the cursory glance I gave at it earlier, I think there's some elements of my swing in that stack and tilt, but I don't think I lean that far ahead of the ball before contact as shown in those pictures. As a matter of fact, I was about to say I probably keep my weight on the leading foot (I'm a lefty) but am probably leaning a little backwards and through the ball, I straighten up onto the leading foot....and looking at Baddely in the second link, it looks exactly like how I tried to recall my shot (but doesn't go anything like his, lol).

[Game Face]

I've been using the S&T the last half year, or whatever month the first article in GD came out this year.

If you're looking for a swing with less moving parts (ie, less to remember) and a full back swing is too much start to finish, this might be something to check out. The S&T is for real.

It's taken me a few months (4-6 times per month avg, incl range) but, like any new swing, I'm finally getting the mental and physical parts together on the same page. Most of the holdback was the lack of trusting myself to perform the short backswing along with the powerful forward finish. The abbreviated backswing makes it feel like you won't get any distance. It has the adverse effect. There is no loss of distance.




I only know the Stack & Tilt. Can't comment on the Trebuchet

[Bulls9999]

Short backswing....I have always marvelled how I could take a 3-iron into the woods and hit a low, straight, burner through the trees, towards the green and carry 200 yards with that little half swing punch shot, but taking a full swing 3-iron from the fairways would introduce a lousy fade. Then off the tee on one of our holes where the tee box is tucked back into the trees and you have to come out of a 'shute' through the trees, I started using that same type of half-back swing with the driver and noticed instead of going left/right, it would be a penetrating shot down the middle, and I started using it principally on that hole. I didn't know what you called that shot, but I called it the "3-iron punch shot with a driver in hand", lol. Then I started getting a little bolder and using it in other trouble tee shot areas. Then the article comes out and I guess that is part of the stack-and-tilt backswing, lol.

Originally Posted by Game Face

I've been using the S&T the last half year, or whatever month the first article in GD came out this year.

If you're looking for a swing with less moving parts (ie, less to remember) and a full back swing is too much start to finish, this might be something to check out. The S&T is for real.

It's taken me a few months (4-6 times per month avg, incl range) but, like any new swing, I'm finally getting the mental and physical parts together on the same page. Most of the holdback was the lack of trusting myself to perform the short backswing along with the powerful forward finish. The abbreviated backswing makes it feel like you won't get any distance. It has the adverse effect. There is no loss of distance.




I only know the Stack & Tilt. Can't comment on the Trebuchet

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Game Face

Most of the holdback was the lack of trusting myself to perform the short backswing along with the powerful forward finish. The abbreviated backswing makes it feel like you won't get any distance. It has the adverse effect. There is no loss of distance.

This is the part I couldn't get past. It isn't just the abbreviated backswing... I don't go to parallel anyway. I couldn't get used to the lack of that braced & coiled feeling against the right instep. It felt so weak that I inevitably tried to "help" it in detrimental ways, though as you say if you just trust it there is no loss of distance and contact is more reliable. Putting that trust into action is easier said than done though. 40 years of muscle memory is hard to overcome. If I never looked up to see where my putts were going I'd probably sink a lot more of them too. Using S&T did help reinforce where my weight should be through the ball, though. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone struggling with consistent contact.

[Johneli]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

This is the part I couldn't get past. It isn't just the abbreviated backswing... I don't go to parallel anyway. I couldn't get used to the lack of that braced & coiled feeling against the right instep. It felt so weak that I inevitably tried to "help" it in detrimental ways, though as you say if you just trust it there is no loss of distance and contact is more reliable. Putting that trust into action is easier said than done though. 40 years of muscle memory is hard to overcome. If I never looked up to see where my putts were going I'd probably sink a lot more of them too. Using S&T did help reinforce where my weight should be through the ball, though. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone struggling with consistent contact.

As it turns out I've moved to the short backswing as a sort of "next logical step" to improving my accuracy. When I first started using it (not because I read about S and T, but rather out of the pure logic that a short backswing eliminates a lot of error inherent in a full swing) it felt like there was no way I could get any distance. But I stuck with it and am actually hitting the ball as far as I did when I swung out of my butt at 20. What it FORCES you to do is engage the lower part of your body before your hands can ruin the act. Actually you don't have any choice because you don't have enough of a wrist cock to start with the hands and the feeling is like "OK you have to hit this ball....how you gonna do that?"....you have no power.....then your lower body (legs and knee) take over because that's all you have left!!! It works very well. The ball goes where you're aiming because the backswing is so short that the clubhead has no time to get off track. I do have one criticism though (oh surprise!)......it decreased the trajectory of just about every shot. I used to hit this high draw...now I hit the ball dead straight with a lower trajectory. The only saving grace is that, since it mimmicks a punch shot, the ball will stop dead on the greens......but they roll on the fairways.

[Bulls9999]

OK, next question that your answer leads me to... does that change the way you 'load the shaft' in regard to stiff vs reg flex? I've been wondering why I've not been getting the 'feel' through the ball I used to get in responsiveness from my driver and with all this talk now about shortened swing, it has me wondering if that prevents me from loading my stiff shaft the way I used to with a full swing and perhaps (for me) would a regular flex be better with this shortened swing?
Does this make any sense or am I just mumbling out loud, lol??

Originally Posted by Johneli

As it turns out I've moved to the short backswing as a sort of "next logical step" to improving my accuracy. When I first started using it (not because I read about S and T, but rather out of the pure logic that a short backswing eliminates a lot of error inherent in a full swing) it felt like there was no way I could get any distance. But I stuck with it and am actually hitting the ball as far as I did when I swung out of my butt at 20. What it FORCES you to do is engage the lower part of your body before your hands can ruin the act. Actually you don't have any choice because you don't have enough of a wrist cock to start with the hands and the feeling is like "OK you have to hit this ball....how you gonna do that?"....you have no power.....then your lower body (legs and knee) take over because that's all you have left!!! It works very well. The ball goes where you're aiming because the backswing is so short that the clubhead has no time to get off track. I do have one criticism though (oh surprise!)......it decreased the trajectory of just about every shot. I used to hit this high draw...now I hit the ball dead straight with a lower trajectory. The only saving grace is that, since it mimmicks a punch shot, the ball will stop dead on the greens......but they roll on the fairways.

[Johneli]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

OK, next question that your answer leads me to... does that change the way you 'load the shaft' in regard to stiff vs reg flex? I've been wondering why I've not been getting the 'feel' through the ball I used to get in responsiveness from my driver and with all this talk now about shortened swing, it has me wondering if that prevents me from loading my stiff shaft the way I used to with a full swing and perhaps (for me) would a regular flex be better with this shortened swing?
Does this make any sense or am I just mumbling out loud, lol??

No..you make sense. As a matter of fact I had a stiff shaft before going to the shorter backswing. I felt like I wasn't getting all of the ball, so I borrowed my B-I-L's regular shafted driver and hit it like I hadn't shortened my backswing at all. So, yes it seems to me and has been born out that as you make your backswing shorter you should try shafts with more flex because you will have to rely on the "whip" to provide you with the distance lost to the shorter backswing. The only precaution is not to go too whippy because then the accuracy you gain with the shorter backswing will be lost to the inconsistencies of a whippy shaft.

The beauty of this shorter swing is that it keeps the hands out of your swing by necessity. For me a Godsend because I've always had the tendency to get "handsy" from the top, which led to many a sweeping or snap hook. (I don't want to use the dreaded "duck" word )

[Game Face]

Originally Posted by Johneli

No..you make sense. As a matter of fact I had a stiff shaft before going to the shorter backswing.

I think both of you have it right.

I've been playing Nickent irons the last few years with regular graphite shafts. I had major shoulder surgery about 5 1/2 yrs ago. Because of that my swing was weak and extremely slow up to around a year or so ago.

When I first started practicing the S&T I continued to use the Nickents until a few months ago when I bought a set of '65 Wilson Staff irons with stiff shafts from a nice gentleman on another forum ... my first set of old blade irons. Both sets are like night and day... so completely different from one another.

Before I got the Wilson's I had noticed I was getting great distance with the Nickent graphite shafts but was all over the place. I had little control over where the ball was going. When I switched to the stiff steel shafts it was a 180° turn.. I had all the control I needed, but lost a lot of distance. Part of the loss was the higher lofts on the old irons and the stiffness of the shafts. Even when I clubbed up with the stiffies I still had a substantial loss of distance.

So early this month I bought an inexpensive set of irons. Adams GT500's with reg True Temper steel shafts. Got them for $169 + $5 shipping from TGW. Yeah, real cheap. It took me one range session to get the feel for them. They are actually really good clubs for the price.

They give me the feel I'm looking for. I am getting the expected distance, lower trajectory and much better accuracy. I figure that maybe a year from now, or maybe by next summer I can get a better set of irons fitted to me and the S&T... seeing that the S&T swing is a little steeper than the norm, especially with the shorter irons.

I truly believe I am on my way to better and better golf with these simple irons and the S&T swing.





note: I do not know what my swing speed is. I do know it is not slow, nor is it super fast. Regular shafts work for me.