Open stance with driver to clear my hips?

[Bulls9999]

Did I just 'fix myself'? (some friends would have fun with that phrase)

I have to say, I've been having trouble the last few months with my drives. Not getting distance and if not straight (ok, my natural shot is a slight fade) then I'm pushing or slicing. This week, I started playing around with setting up open, thinking that I need a little help turning or clearing my hips. Perhaps my thicker waist (40-in) doesn't have the spring loading my son's skinny little 20-inch waist has? I'm setting up with my forward foot about 4-inches back from a line that would be square to my target, but still trying to keep my driver going down the line through the ball without pulling away from the line at the ball and 'cutting it'. I must say, this is working fantastic and I'm hitting some great shots, solidly, and with a feeling that I'm swinging all the way throught and past the ball, which takes on a flight of down the right side then fading slightly back to the left (I'm a lefty) with about 10 feet of 'break' in the drive pattern. Very acceptable to me given where I've been. Is this a normal 'fix' or does this sound like I've applied some unorthodox patch to my previous problem? I mean, when you look at the stance, it's fairly open, although I'm trying to go 'down the line' with my driver and not follow my stance direction. Given that this is working nicely with two different drivers that I was previously thinking were too stiff, I could see that setting up square and not being able to 'come around' sufficiently wasn't giving me the power through the ball or causing it to push or slice often enough.

My wife just says... lose some weight. OK, I'll try that too. Any 'thick waisted' guys here do anything similar?

[90civicracer]

I can't speak for myself, but I was watching playing lessons with the pros with Fred Couples and he said that he does the same thing. He sets up slightly open to the ball and it works for him.

[deronsizemore]

I think the main thing to watch out for is your shoulders. You can almost aim your feet anywhere as long as your shoulders are still square, there is a fairly good chance you'll still make a decent swing. If it were me, I would just make sure that my shoulders didn't start to drift open with my feet as then you'll have everything lined up left of your target and have to hit an intentional fade to get it back online. That's assuming that your swing is sound and the ball starts off on the line that you're aiming on.

[Bulls9999]

Yes, they are and I would even venture to say my hips are square as much as I can, except for my leading/forward foot being back about 4 inches. I started with the idea of doing this from two reasons. 1, my son was telling me I was lifting my forward foot's heel on my backswing. I figured that I must be trying to compensate for something. 2, I have always remembered a discussion I had with a member of Southern Hills during the US Open there a few years back. He said he had taken lessens from several different people, but the best lessons he had was from someone of the same 'stature' (i.e., heaviness) as he was. He joked that "I don't think these skinny PGA Pro's can relate to middle-thickness that middle aged guys develop as much as someone who lives it themselves". I thought, heck, that makes sense. In trying to figure out what was wrong, I started thinking of what I could be doing that is restricting myself, if from physical restrictions or anything else....I thought of that conversation and thought of hip turn restriction, and thought that would also make sense of the heel coming up too, so I started playing with that and my drives have now been RE-BORN !!! Hallelluliah !!! Say Amen...Amen !!

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I think the main thing to watch out for is your shoulders. You can almost aim your feet anywhere as long as your shoulders are still square, there is a fairly good chance you'll still make a decent swing. If it were me, I would just make sure that my shoulders didn't start to drift open with my feet as then you'll have everything lined up left of your target and have to hit an intentional fade to get it back online. That's assuming that your swing is sound and the ball starts off on the line that you're aiming on.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Did I just 'fix myself'? (some friends would have fun with that phrase)

I have to say, I've been having trouble the last few months with my drives. Not getting distance and if not straight (ok, my natural shot is a slight fade) then I'm pushing or slicing. This week, I started playing around with setting up open, thinking that I need a little help turning or clearing my hips. Perhaps my thicker waist (40-in) doesn't have the spring loading my son's skinny little 20-inch waist has? I'm setting up with my forward foot about 4-inches back from a line that would be square to my target, but still trying to keep my driver going down the line through the ball without pulling away from the line at the ball and 'cutting it'. I must say, this is working fantastic and I'm hitting some great shots, solidly, and with a feeling that I'm swinging all the way throught and past the ball, which takes on a flight of down the right side then fading slightly back to the left (I'm a lefty) with about 10 feet of 'break' in the drive pattern. Very acceptable to me given where I've been. Is this a normal 'fix' or does this sound like I've applied some unorthodox patch to my previous problem? I mean, when you look at the stance, it's fairly open, although I'm trying to go 'down the line' with my driver and not follow my stance direction. Given that this is working nicely with two different drivers that I was previously thinking were too stiff, I could see that setting up square and not being able to 'come around' sufficiently wasn't giving me the power through the ball or causing it to push or slice often enough.

My wife just says... lose some weight. OK, I'll try that too. Any 'thick waisted' guys here do anything similar?

Look at Lee Trevino's swing. That is what he did. BUT, he also took it back outside and brought it down inside, like Furyk does now. If you are going to play with an open stance, you gotta strongly start your downswing with hips, and bring that elbow against your stomach before impact.

"If you don't start with hips, you WILL start with shoulders. (OTT)"

Larry

[JPsuff]

.

I play everything from an open stance.

As far as I'm concerned, golf was meant to be played from an open stance and that's all I've ever done. An open stance clears the hips by default, allows for a free and powerful downswing, allows one to "chase" the ball more effectively and promotes higher trajectories.
With a driver, I'm probably an inch or so open but by the time I get to the wedges, I'm easily six to eight inches open - I even putt from an open stance. An open setup makes it easier to stay "behind" the ball and it's almost impossible to get "locked up" on the downswing.

Square setups have their advantages, but they require impeccable timing and, in my opinion, they take a lot of the "feel" out of the game and replace it with mechanical "technique" which I find rather unnatural. Open setups were the industry standard back in the day before someone got the idea to try to treat human beings as machines and "program" the golf swing.

An open stance is the bedrock of the "Grip It and Rip It" school of golf and I'm it's poster boy!



-JP

[larryrsf]

"An open stance is the bedrock of the "Grip It and Rip It" school..."

Every now and then Chi Chi Rodriquez is on TGC "Playing Lessons with the Pros." Watch him when you find it. Very edifying. He hits it arrow straight or turns left or right from any lie. He scores par or less on a LONG championship course.

He does that from an extremely closed stance. He hits with his back leg at least a foot farther back from the target line than his front foot. Feet, shoulders, and hips totally closed to the target.

Chi Chi is a little guy who was one of the best players in the world for years-- a trick shot artist who could do what "the Hit Man" does today.

Larry

[Bulls9999]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm glad that I'm on the right track. I had previously evolved to a strict square stance, believing open stance promotes slices, closed stance promotes draws. Perhaps I wasn't so square before, but with the square stance the last few months coming out of the winter hibernation, something just was not right. I went home for lunch today and sure enough on GC - Lessons from the Pro's was Freddy Couples, mentioned clearing his hips out of the way. I went out to my 'private driving range' (open field next to my house) and hit a bucket of balls and all but 2 would have probably been on the fairway !! I'm feeling good about my driving again and the confidence is showing in my play.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

... I'm feeling good about my driving again and the confidence is showing in my play.

And that, my friend, is the ONLY thing that really matters about it - it works for you!

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

And that, my friend, is the ONLY thing that really matters about it - it works for you!

Absolutely!


Just like the closed stance worked for Chi Chi.


-JP

[Bulls9999]

Dang, hit another bucket of balls this lunch period with different driver than I used yesterday (yesterday used the Nike Sumo Sasquatch 460; today used my Callaway X-460) and again, I would have been happy with all but 2-3 of them as a drive off the tee. I can't believe how I migrated to this completely square position during the winter-into-the-spring season and it really played havoc with my mental state. Now, simply pulling the leading foot back 4 inches has made a dramatic and still almost unbelievable change in my ability to hit nice consistent tee shots and its obvious that with the square setup, I wasn't able to clear my hips for the continuation of my swing and gawd ugly down-the-middle-to-left-rough fades. Sorry for ranting, but still in a state of disbelief and so glad.

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm glad that I'm on the right track. I had previously evolved to a strict square stance, believing open stance promotes slices, closed stance promotes draws. Perhaps I wasn't so square before, but with the square stance the last few months coming out of the winter hibernation, something just was not right. I went home for lunch today and sure enough on GC - Lessons from the Pro's was Freddy Couples, mentioned clearing his hips out of the way. I went out to my 'private driving range' (open field next to my house) and hit a bucket of balls and all but 2 would have probably been on the fairway !! I'm feeling good about my driving again and the confidence is showing in my play.

[larryrsf]

If you had been on Harvey Penick's golf team, you would NOT have been allowed to hit driver over and over again. There is probably no better way to ruin a golf swing.

He made his teams practice with short to medium irons-- the "scoring" clubs. Driver is simply to put the ball in play. Smart players hit the whole bucket with a 8i-- and then a driver or two just ensure they can bring that swing to their driver.


Larry

[Bulls9999]

Considering this has been one of my major problems lately, I've been wanting to see myself remedy this recent and recurring problem. I'm just thrilled that I can now (seemingly) conrol my drives to where they are all nearly going long (for me) and straight (slight right to left curvature, for a lefty).

I don't normally 'hit the entire bucket with one club'.

My normal routine at the range is ...start with short irons to losen up, then skipping every other iron (P => 9 => 7 => 5=> 3) making my way to the 3-iron, then hybrid, 3-wood, driver....no more than 4 balls with each of these (maybe a 5th if the 4th wasn't good...I like to end on a good shot with any club), which is about 30-32 balls. When I come home for lunch, I usually hit 15-18 balls with one club...this week, I just wanted to make sure that the 'miracle' I've witnessed with my driver is for real. So I'm not insulted with your comment, but it's not my normal routine either.

Originally Posted by larryrsf

If you had been on Harvey Penick's golf team, you would NOT have been allowed to hit driver over and over again. There is probably no better way to ruin a golf swing.

He made his teams practice with short to medium irons-- the "scoring" clubs. Driver is simply to put the ball in play. Smart players hit the whole bucket with a 8i-- and then a driver or two just ensure they can bring that swing to their driver.


Larry

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Considering this has been one of my major problems lately, I've been wanting to see myself remedy this recent and recurring problem. I'm just thrilled that I can now (seemingly) conrol my drives to where they are all nearly going long (for me) and straight (slight right to left curvature, for a lefty).

I don't normally 'hit the entire bucket with one club'.

My normal routine at the range is ...start with short irons to losen up, then skipping every other iron (P => 9 => 7 => 5=> 3) making my way to the 3-iron, then hybrid, 3-wood, driver....no more than 4 balls with each of these (maybe a 5th if the 4th wasn't good...I like to end on a good shot with any club), which is about 30-32 balls. When I come home for lunch, I usually hit 15-18 balls with one club...this week, I just wanted to make sure that the 'miracle' I've witnessed with my driver is for real. So I'm not insulted with your comment, but it's not my normal routine either.

Hi Bulls9999

I would make one suggestion to you. Since you seem to be pretty comfortable with how you're playing right now, I'd stand on a piece of paper or some such and mark where you are right now. Over time, the open stance will begin to feel natural to you and if you're still trying to open it up, you may end up overdoing it. If you do, having marked off the position that works will be very useful I would think.

[Bulls9999]

Ty, lol, I almost wrote that in the last post. Actually, I have a laminated brown pressed board (about 5 x 4 feet) in the garage that I use for lie angle determination (hit off of it with impact tape) that I've actually did just that....outlined my feet, the intended line, and a line across the tops of my feet and my approximate tee area. Gotcha....I'm not going to let that one get away from me. I'm going to catalogue that under "when things seem to start getting out of hand, check...."

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

Hi Bulls9999

I would make one suggestion to you. Since you seem to be pretty comfortable with how you're playing right now, I'd stand on a piece of paper or some such and mark where you are right now. Over time, the open stance will begin to feel natural to you and if you're still trying to open it up, you may end up overdoing it. If you do, having marked off the position that works will be very useful I would think.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Ty, lol, I almost wrote that in the last post. Actually, I have a laminated brown pressed board (about 5 x 4 feet) in the garage that I use for lie angle determination (hit off of it with impact tape) that I've actually did just that....outlined my feet, the intended line, and a line across the tops of my feet and my approximate tee area. Gotcha....I'm not going to let that one get away from me. I'm going to catalogue that under "when things seem to start getting out of hand, check...."

Perfect. Many is the time I have wished I'd done that.

[larryrsf]

Next time you go to the range, watch what very good players do. If it is a practice session, not warmup before a round, you'll see them bring one or two clubs, NOT their whole bag. They will hit 50+ balls with a single club, working on nuance, fine tuning their golf swing, fine tuning crisp contact, no divot behind the ball, several inches in front of the ball. They will work on hitting draw, fade, high, low, even punch shots to a target. All with the same club.

Every fault in your swing will show up with one club-- and the fix will be easier to focus on. If you're hitting balls "late," your divots will reveal that.

We should work for consistency with ONE CLUB (which will carry over to all your clubs.). Challenge yourself to hit 10 for 10 8i to a target-- for me 135 yards out. If you can only hit 8 of 10 well, hit two fat or topped, that lets you focus on the cause.

But hitting balls with every club simply disguises and obscures your persistent fault.

Larry

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

If you had been on Harvey Penick's golf team, you would NOT have been allowed to hit driver over and over again. There is probably no better way to ruin a golf swing.

He made his teams practice with short to medium irons-- the "scoring" clubs. Driver is simply to put the ball in play. Smart players hit the whole bucket with a 8i-- and then a driver or two just ensure they can bring that swing to their driver.


Larry

I am a firm believer that we must learn (or teach ourselves) the correct golf swing with short irons--and then slowly migrate that to our longer clubs. If we can do it with an 8i and then make a horrible out of sequence slash with driver, DON"T HIT DRIVER until your correct swing is totally ingrained--the ugly slash never pops back up again. Each time that happens you ERASE dozens or hundreds of good swings.

I practice with 7i or 8i. I work to make the best swing possible with that club--and then when I get it, hit it over and over again-- trying to POUND that into my brain, to make my subconscious understand and agree that this is the best movement sequence--

Here is my typical practice shot on the range. I might hit 100 of these, trying to hit a target 10 in a row!!

YouTube - Latest Swing

Larry