Setting up irons: Forward press

[titaniummd]

I am not referring to the forward move of the hands at the initiation of the swing. I am referring to having the hands in the forward position in relation to the ball (in line with the left thigh).

This is how I set up with my hands forward (this is not me, I don't know how to take photos like this):

http://golfeasyway.com/yahoo_site_ad...285904_std.gif

This is how I was swinging but it didn't go as far:

http://www.club-noticeboard.co.uk/sw...GOLF_SWING.jpg

It seems with the forward angle of my hands the club is delofted and it goes so much further.

[Bigvivec]

I do the straight line Y thing like in the first series...hands just left of the zipper...

[deronsizemore]

You'll generally have a little forward press with your irons if your ball position is in the correct location. Generally most people play the ball to far forward with their irons (like a driver position) thus the hands are behind the ball which in turn causes fat, thin and topped shots.

If your ball position is correct, you really shouldn't need to consciously think about forward pressing. If your ball position is incorrect and you're trying to forward press simply so your hands are in front of the ball you'll likely cause more problems for yourself (although you may be able to get away with it for a few days if your timing is on).

Here's a video of Ernie: YouTube - Ernie Els Swing Vision

Notice his ball position and position of his hands. He's not really forward pressing so to speak, but it looks like he simply because of his ball position.

That's my .02

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by titaniummd

I am not referring to the forward move of the hands at the initiation of the swing. I am referring to having the hands in the forward position in relation to the ball (in line with the left thigh).

In working on my setup last winter, my teacher shared with me what he refers to as the "left-nut rule".

[alangbaker]

Originally Posted by titaniummd

I am not referring to the forward move of the hands at the initiation of the swing. I am referring to having the hands in the forward position in relation to the ball (in line with the left thigh).

This is how I set up with my hands forward (this is not me, I don't know how to take photos like this):

http://golfeasyway.com/yahoo_site_ad...285904_std.gif

This is how I was swinging but it didn't go as far:

http://www.club-noticeboard.co.uk/sw...GOLF_SWING.jpg

It seems with the forward angle of my hands the club is delofted and it goes so much further.

I honestly believe that that the position of your hands at address isn't really important. At impact? Of course, but the position at address should just allow one to be comfortable in one's setup and thus start a sequence that will lead to the hands being ahead at impact.

I know some people will talk about mimicking impact, but if that were important then explain why it's only important for the hands and not for the rest of the body...

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by titaniummd

I am not referring to the forward move of the hands at the initiation of the swing. I am referring to having the hands in the forward position in relation to the ball (in line with the left thigh).

This is how I set up with my hands forward (this is not me, I don't know how to take photos like this):

http://golfeasyway.com/yahoo_site_ad...285904_std.gif

This is how I was swinging but it didn't go as far:

http://www.club-noticeboard.co.uk/sw...GOLF_SWING.jpg

It seems with the forward angle of my hands the club is delofted and it goes so much further.

It is mental, of course. But you must keep your hands ahead of the clubhead-- or said another way, the clubhead should never pass your hands. Good golfers TRAP the ball against the turf- striking down on it and then making a LONG divot after impact. Good golfers anticipate and plan the divot to be made--they hardly even look at the ball, so important it is to keep the clubhead accelerating through impact--with the hands leading.

That is the purpose of the drills in Ben Hogan's "5 lessons" book. That little half swing drill is the whole thing. He describes swinging back and forth with the upper arms GLUED to our rib cage. That means the turning hips and torso actually lead the clubhead through impact-- dragging the clubhead into the ball and trapping it. The arms and hands are passive.

If you ever hit a ball like that-- you will have it. It is addictive.

Larry

[straightshooter]

TiMD: Set up your the irons in your set with them flatly soled on the carpet, with the shaft or the grip 'held' against a couch or against a wall, right next to eachother, and in order. You should see the progression of more forward lean (thus more divot) from the PW downto less lean (thus less divot) for the longer irons. Simply remember to use them like that (i.e. as per their design) when you play or practice.

For kicks, while you have them on the floor like that, crouch down low and look at their profile from behind or from the front, and you will see that they all have the same profile: I.e. they all look the same from the ball's perspective, except for lie differences.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Good golfers TRAP the ball against the turf

That means the turning hips and torso actually lead the clubhead through impact-- dragging the clubhead into the ball and trapping it.

This isn't a knock at you, but "trapping the ball" is a complete myth - you can't do it. In fact, there's a great clip of Peter Kostis evaluating Boo's swing and he says, "that's called compressing the golf ball between the club and the ground," which, if you watch the clip, he doesn't do:

YouTube - Boo Weekley Swing Vision

I think it just creates the mental image to hit down on the ball.

[alangbaker]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

It is mental, of course. But you must keep your hands ahead of the clubhead-- or said another way, the clubhead should never pass your hands. Good golfers TRAP the ball against the turf- striking down on it and then making a LONG divot after impact. Good golfers anticipate and plan the divot to be made--they hardly even look at the ball, so important it is to keep the clubhead accelerating through impact--with the hands leading.

As has been pointed out to you, trapping the ball against the turf is a *myth*.

There is one reason and one reason alone to hit the ball with clubhead still heading downward: cleaner contact. But hitting on a downward angle, you make it easier to hit the ball in the centre of the clubface without accidentally hitting the ground first.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

This isn't a knock at you, but "trapping the ball" is a complete myth - you can't do it. In fact, there's a great clip of Peter Kostis evaluating Boo's swing and he says, "that's called compressing the golf ball between the club and the ground," which, if you watch the clip, he doesn't do:

YouTube - Boo Weekley Swing Vision

I think it just creates the mental image to hit down on the ball.

I started that post with, "it is mental." Most of the golf swing is created by a mental image we endeavor to execute. Admittedly we don't actually do what we try to do, so what? Even Hogan's mental image, what he "thought" and wrote that he was doing was quite different than what he actually did. But what he actually did was consistently better than any golfer of his time.

Hale Irwin famously refuses to watch videos of his golf swing. He knows it is likely that what he actually does is different from what he "tries to do." Watching his swing could change his mental approach--so he doesn't risk it. Hale Irwin is smart--and accordingly the winningest player EVER on the Champion's Tour.

Good golfers have found a mental approach that produces consistent results. They never vary from that same swing thought. They have learned what they must "try" to do in order to create the ball strike and flight pattern that consistently works. And that is what we should be searching for on the range.

Poor golfers are still experimenting, even on the golf course. Each swing is different, each swing thought is different.

A consistent mental approach to every swing is the primary difference between the two groups.

Gene Littler said his "secret" is a single simple swing thought he discovered 55+ years ago. That consistency lifted him from a club golfer to the US Open and 30+ PGA wins. He never looked back. He doesn't read golf books, magazines, or any "golf tips" and he never took a lesson. He just prepares himself mentally the same way for every swing of his golf club.

So if a great golfer thinks he "traps" the ball between clubhead and turf, and makes crisp contact and a consistent straight or patterned ball flight, then he traps the ball. No smart golfer tinkers with a successful swing thought. "If it ain't broke--"

Larry

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

I started that post with, "it is mental." Most of the golf swing is created by a mental image we endeavor to execute. Admittedly we don't actually do what we try to do, so what? Even Hogan's mental image, what he "thought" and wrote that he was doing was quite different than what he actually did. But what he actually did was consistently better than any golfer of his time.

Hale Irwin famously refuses to watch videos of his golf swing. He knows it is likely that what he actually does is different from what he "tries to do." Watching his swing could change his mental approach--so he doesn't risk it. Hale Irwin is smart--and accordingly the winningest player EVER on the Champion's Tour.

Good golfers have found a mental approach that produces consistent results. They never vary from that same swing thought. They have learned what they must "try" to do in order to create the ball strike and flight pattern that consistently works. And that is what we should be searching for on the range.

Poor golfers are still experimenting, even on the golf course. Each swing is different, each swing thought is different.

A consistent mental approach to every swing is the primary difference between the two groups.

Gene Littler said his "secret" is a single simple swing thought he discovered 55+ years ago. That consistency lifted him from a club golfer to the US Open and 30+ PGA wins. He never looked back. He doesn't read golf books, magazines, or any "golf tips" and he never took a lesson. He just prepares himself mentally the same way for every swing of his golf club.

So if a great golfer thinks he "traps" the ball between clubhead and turf, and makes crisp contact and a consistent straight or patterned ball flight, then he traps the ball. No smart golfer tinkers with a successful swing thought. "If it ain't broke--"

Larry

I completely agree, again, I wasn't meaning to knock you, I'm just sayin'...

[ringin]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Hale Irwin famously refuses to watch videos of his golf swing. He knows it is likely that what he actually does is different from what he "tries to do." Watching his swing could change his mental approach--so he doesn't risk it. Hale Irwin is smart--and accordingly the winningest player EVER on the Champion's Tour.

Main ain't that the truth. I took my little Canon Powershot camera out and took some little 1 minute vid clips of my swing the other day....I found a handful of little things that I didn't like, and now that's all I'm thinking about. I was playing fine and didn't really need to see my swing...now I wish I hadn't. I need to get the demons out of my head now.

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by ringin

Main ain't that the truth. I took my little Canon Powershot camera out and took some little 1 minute vid clips of my swing the other day....I found a handful of little things that I didn't like, and now that's all I'm thinking about. I was playing fine and didn't really need to see my swing...now I wish I hadn't. I need to get the demons out of my head now.

Same thing happened to me about 6 months ago...went to the range with the laptop and camera, set the rig and was totally confused a half an hour later...

Ironically, if I watch a good swing (like a youtube thing) over and over, I will feel and results prove out that I swing better...

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

Ironically, if I watch a good swing (like a youtube thing) over and over, I will feel and results prove out that I swing better...

Nick Faldo was just discussing this with this amateur partner on Playing Lessons with the Pros on the Golf Channel. He was talking about just envisioning a tour player's swing and just transferring that into your own swing.

[alangbaker]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

Same thing happened to me about 6 months ago...went to the range with the laptop and camera, set the rig and was totally confused a half an hour later...

Ironically, if I watch a good swing (like a youtube thing) over and over, I will feel and results prove out that I swing better...

I almost always swing the club better after just having watch a tour event.

[Bigvivec]

Maybe we should forward this thread to the PGA marketing office...

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

Maybe we should forward this thread to the PGA marketing office...

I have read repeatedly that Hale Irwin refused to look at his swing on video. He feared that the difference between what he thinks he does and what he actually does would mess him up. So he refused. Makes sense to me, why should the best senior golfer in the world risk tinkering with his swing?-- or his mental image of his swing? There would be everything to lose and nothing to gain. Hale Irwin is smart.

Just work to make crisp contact and propel the ball straight. It does not matter how you do it or what your swing looks like. As Harvey Penick counseled his college golf teams-- the opponent who does it "wrong" consistently enough to score-- will beat you.

Larry

[alangbaker]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

I have read repeatedly that Hale Irwin refused to look at his swing on video. He feared that the difference between what he thinks he does and what he actually does would mess him up. So he refused. Makes sense to me, why should the best senior golfer in the world risk tinkering with his swing?-- or his mental image of his swing? There would be everything to lose and nothing to gain. Hale Irwin is smart.

Larry, I'm confused. When first discussed you said that anyone who looked at video was an idiot. Then you extolled its virtues. And now you're back to the idiot theory.

Do I have that right?

Surely you don't think the hundreds of touring professionals who *do* use video are all completely wasting their time do you? Along with their teaching pros?

Just work to make crisp contact and propel the ball straight. It does not matter how you do it or what your swing looks like. As Harvey Penick counseled his college golf teams-- the opponent who does it "wrong" consistently enough to score-- will beat you.

A quirky swing *can* work, of course — just look at Lee Trevino or Jim Furyk,
but it seems to me that a fundamentally sound swing would be a better thing to work on, wouldn't you agree?

[larryrsf]

"Larry, I'm confused."

Your posts make that abundantly clear. It is also clear that your intent here is to provoke a personal response from me. Ain't gonna happen.

Larry

[ringin]

What is the history between you guys?? (Larry and Alan). I think everyone here senses an uncomfortable tension when you post in the same thread? At least I do. What gives? I'm not trying to start anything..I'm just curious how you two have had a feud going since day one.