Lessons-- do they help or hurt?

[larryrsf]

Say you are fairly accomplished, a mid-handicap golfer who scores in the middle 80s from either blue or white. You hit most fairways and half the greens, have a tragedy hole nearly every round.

Can you improve with lessons? WOULD you rigorously do the drills and adhere to the swing changes a pro WOULD suggest?

Or would your view of yourself on video screw you up? Would you play worse for weeks or months as a result of that lesson-- and your inability to see the required ingraining of the changes through?

So why take the lesson? Why put yourself through another round of trying to incorporate a change, tensing up, thinking on the tee, etc. etc.

"Ignorance is bliss" probably applies in this scenario because if you think you are swinging well enough, if you are hitting fairways and a few greens, if you are relaxed and having fun-- why fix what ain't broken? WHO CARES that you get the club too steep, that you occasionally swing OTT, that you can't always finish on balance, etc??? Your opponents love that your swing has defects-- but they HATE that the ball often goes straight anyhow!!!

BTW, Hale Irwin probably needed lessons. Teaching pro friends say his swing was awful, OTT, etc. But Hale refused to let anyone "help" him, he refused to look at his swing on video, he just played with what he had-- and he won $15 MILLION on the Champion's tour.

Food for though, hey?

Larry

[essurfer]

Well if Tiger Woods benefits from lessons which a personal coach is in effect, then I would think I can also. My personal experience is that they have helped me.

[VancouverGolf]

Originally Posted by essurfer

Well if Tiger Woods benefits from lessons which a personal coach is in effect, then I would think I can also. My personal experience is that they have helped me.

Every year I start out wondering whether perhaps this is finally the time to find a really good pro and see if he/she can't put the finishing touches on my golf swing, and each year I find myself postponing the decision in favour of seeing what I can do on my own.

There are two main reasons:

1. Finding a really good pro isn't as simple as just picking the first one at your local course who happens to be free. Even if the one you pick is truly first rate, you may still find that you're not in sync with him or her. And so the process of finding the pro is going to take some time and money. Time and money you could spend at least partially on playing more rounds.

2. The process of learning on one's own is fun and knowing that you've achieved something by your own efforts is very satisfying.

I've already learned one sport in my life by taking extensive lessons from first class instructors and coaches: skiing.

For the time being, I'm happy to learn golf on my own.

Next spring: who knows?

[JimSomebody]

Good topic. In my own experience, lessons have been a help. Of course, that's dependent on whether one actually gets understandable and useful advice, and then goes out and practices.

When I resumed playing golf after a 20-year layoff, I took a series of lessons at an indoor practice facility during the winter, so I could get to the point where I wouldn't embarrass myself too badly when the season started. I just picked the teacher who was usually there and bought a package of 5 lessons. No videotaping of my swing; just watching me hit, telling me things, etc. He was a good teacher (gave me advice I could understand and put into effect, which got me hitting better shots more consistently). I didn't really like the guy that much, but so what.

I also took a chipping/pitching lesson from another pro at that facility. She was friendly and looked like Kirstie Alley from her Cheers days, which didn't hurt. We got along fine, but I didn't think she'd helped me significantly, so I didn't take any more lessons from her.

I took a lesson at a Golf Galaxy from a pro that videotaped me. Seeing myself on tape was powerful persuasion that I needed to slow my swing down. My posture was good, so that was helpful positive reinforcement. No rapport with that guy, so I didn't go back. He didn't seem to enjoy teaching.

In the past three seasons (2007, 2008, and 2009), I've taken seven lessons from the head pro at my home course. He's a friendly guy who gives basic advice that I can use (again, assuming that I practice). I don't think he's the best golfer among the pro's on staff there, but it's always a pleasant half-hour in which I learn something. I think his advice is a big part of the reason why my hdcp has been inching down in the past couple years.

So for me, it's been a plus. But I know that we all have our own approaches to the game.

[Wazmankg]

I'm soon to be 55, been playing off & on since I was 10. I've never had a lesson. I play twice a week about 7-8 months per year. I don't practice, except for my short game. I can't stand the range and have no interest in putting any more into getting better than I do now. Given those parameters I'm never going to be a scratch golfer no matter how many lessons I take. And from what I've heard, good teachers are not easy to find. I already know the fundamentals. So I'd need someone who could spot whatever flaws are there and work with what I have. At this point there's no way I'm going to change my entire swing. I've made a lot of progress this season in getting my HC down to 11. I see no reason why I can't continue to ingrain the changes I've made this year and get down into the high single digits by myself. There are 4-5 strokes I could pick up in my short game alone if I really want to work at it. And I just might. Anything other than that would take way too much time and effort, lessons or none.

[Jim Wile]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

"Ignorance is bliss" probably applies in this scenario because if you think you are swinging well enough, if you are hitting fairways and a few greens, if you are relaxed and having fun-- why fix what ain't broken? WHO CARES that you get the club too steep, that you occasionally swing OTT, that you can't always finish on balance, etc??? Your opponents love that your swing has defects-- but they HATE that the ball often goes straight anyhow!!! Larry

I couldn't agree more. We play this game to have fun, and you seem to be having it. Could you have even more fun if you shaved a few strokes off? Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes when you get real good at something it creates a lot of pressure to stay that good, and you become dissatisfied when you don't play the best you know you can play. It can take the fun out of it. To stay really good, you have to practice a lot, and maybe that just doesn't fit in with your priorities in life.

The only times I've taken lessons are when I first began learning the game--to get a solid grounding in the fundamentals--and when something crept into my swing that I couldn't seem to correct on my own and that was preventing me from enjoying the game. Having a pro look at your swing and correct that problem (and not try to remake your whole swing) can save you a lot of trial and error time on your own.

Bottom line is, if you're happy with your game, such as it is, don't bother with lessons. If you're not, that's when you should consider lessons.

[Golfaddict]

Unless you are in a middle of a real good stretch of scoring I don't see how you can be happy with your game. Maybe if you are just out there to hang out with the guys.

My golf could definitely use some tweaking maybe even an overhaul. I'm too afraid that an instructor would want to do a complete overhaul, and if that's what it would take I don't think I'm up for that in this stage of my golfing life. Ten years ago maybe, but not now. I'll be fine with my golf handicap hovering in the 8-12 range.

[larryrsf]

Well, assuming we are talking about solid players, 10 handicappers who hit fairways and some GIR, the decision about whether to take a lesson should start with self-analysis. If you start this process, will you commit the time and energy that will be necessary to see a major change through? Or will you fail to persist? Will you allow these changes to screw up what you have AND then fail to do the drills and persist through to the permanently improved swing? I am sure there are many cases of near Club Champs who took lessons and then never graduated from the 3d flight again-- became "basket cases" giving themselves lessons on every tee.

After the fundamentals are mastered, improving in golf is very analogous to learning to play a musical instrument. Once you start lessons, you MUST continue to go back and you MUST do the drills and practice the drills and pieces. If you fail to do that, you are "only cheating yourself," as every teacher tells every student.



Remember the worst enemy of the golf swing is tension-- and tension is almost impossible to avoid during any change process. You can relax and swing ONLY when you are loose and confident--

I love the example of Hale Irwin-- who with a very defective swing won anyway! Every teaching pro refuses to show Hale Irwin's swing to students-- and Hale himself reportedly won't look at it-- but he won. He knows that regardless of the poor technical correctness of his movement, he can only get worse in effectiveness as he tries to improve. "If it ain't broken-- why fix it?"

Larry

[Blue_Arc]

This is a good one Larry. The way I see it is it all depends on why you play the game. I you are young and want to conquer the game then yes, lessons would be the way to go. If you are 55 years old and have a bad back and been playing for about a year and having the time of your life stomping through the green hacking at the ball...what would be the point. I get as frustrated as anyone when I hit a bad shot but it's usually short lived. Last as long as it takes to hit another shot. I hit more good shots now than I do bad and the good feeling of that is the reward. Here's something I see. Most everyone I meet out there is about the same as me. They mostly shoot around a hundred strokes. Anyway at my age and at this point in my life...any day above ground and through the green is a great day. I don't want lessons. All I want is a another tee time! Ha!

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by Blue_Arc

This is a good one Larry. The way I see it is it all depends on why you play the game. I you are young and want to conquer the game then yes, lessons would be the way to go. If you are 55 years old and have a bad back and been playing for about a year and having the time of your life stomping through the green hacking at the ball...what would be the point. I get as frustrated as anyone when I hit a bad shot but it's usually short lived. Last as long as it takes to hit another shot. I hit more good shots now than I do bad and the good feeling of that is the reward. Here's something I see. Most everyone I meet out there is about the same as me. They mostly shoot around a hundred strokes. Anyway at my age and at this point in my life...any day above ground and through the green is a great day. I don't want lessons. All I want is a another tee time! Ha!

That is a healthy attitude. I admire those well-adjusted few who can smile and tell jokes WHILE hacking it sideways. They are more concerned with the good experience of their playing partners, and conduct themselves accordingly. Everyone remembers someone (usually a guy) ranting and raving after a poor shot spoiling the whole round, in fact the whole weekend, for 3 other guys. NOBODY CARES how amateurs play golf--any more than they do about other horseshoe players.

Larry

[Blue_Arc]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

NOBODY CARES

Larry

That's the gospel. It ain't nothing to get all worked up over if you are like me. If you are young and have the talent then by all means...go for it. Take lessons.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

I love the example of Hale Irwin-- who with a very defective swing won anyway! Every teaching pro refuses to show Hale Irwin's swing to students-- and Hale himself reportedly won't look at it-- but he won. He knows that regardless of the poor technical correctness of his movement, he can only get worse in effectiveness as he tries to improve. "If it ain't broken-- why fix it?"

Larry

I know that Irwin won't look at his swing, but that's not because it's technically "incorrect". It's because he knows in his mind what he's doing to make a proper pass at the ball and he doesn't want the vision of seeing himself swinging to influence what he thinks he's doing.... because what he thinks he's doing works. I've never heard anyone say that Irwin's swing is technically unsound.

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

I know that Irwin won't look at his swing, but that's not because it's technically "incorrect". It's because he knows in his mind what he's doing to make a proper pass at the ball and he doesn't want the vision of seeing himself swinging to influence what he thinks he's doing.... because what he thinks he's doing works. I've never heard anyone say that Irwin's swing is technically unsound.

Article excerpt from 1998...

By Cary Estes
Scripps Howard News Service
April 29 3:58pm ET


HOOVER, Ala. -- The Senior PGA Tour became a split circuit the past two years.

In six events this season, Irwin has just one top-10 finish. He had just two finishes outside the top 10 in 1998.

There was Hale Irwin and Gil Morgan. And there was everybody else.

Irwin has been the Senior Tour's leading money winner each of the past two seasons. Morgan finished second both years. Irwin had 16 victories during that span, Morgan 12. Irwin finished second or third a total of 12 times, Morgan 11.

"They will not have another year as good as they had last year. It's just not going to happen," Murphy said. "When I played with them a couple of times last year, they were playing beautiful golf. That's the only way you can win out here. And it doesn't last forever."

"I could never have predicted something like that," Irwin said. "I had glimpses of that success on the PGA Tour back in the late '70s. But did any of it reach the level of play, the level of ball-striking that I had the last two years? Probably not. I did technically -- swing-wise, execution-wise, result-wise -- as good as I have ever done."






You mean the same Hale Irwin who led the Champions tour in GIR for three years from 96-98!?!? Terrible technique that guy...

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

You mean the same Hale Irwin who led the Champions tour in GIR for three years from 96-98!?!? Terrible technique that guy...

Exactly. There are guys with goofy swings who get the job done... Palmer, Trevino, Furyk & Kenny Perry come to mind. I can't find a slo-mo of Irwin's swing on the web but it always looked pretty smooth and solid to me.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

I know that Irwin won't look at his swing, but that's not because it's technically "incorrect". It's because he knows in his mind what he's doing to make a proper pass at the ball and he doesn't want the vision of seeing himself swinging to influence what he thinks he's doing.... because what he thinks he's doing works. I've never heard anyone say that Irwin's swing is technically unsound.

Ask any teaching pro with video. They VERY reluctantly pull up his swing because he makes the same mistakes most amateurs do-- He gets the club up too steep and downswings a little OTT. He doesn't make much of a transition weight shift and he doesn't generate much clubhead speed. He doesn't hit it very far. Obviouly he doesn't slice too often, but he probably had to make a tiny compensation to prevent that. Not ideal--and DEFINITELY not what they want to teach.

Hale Irwin was a college ACADEMIC All American. Smart dude. He knows his swing is not perfect, but he probably knew that looking at it could only hurt-- since it is VERY difficult to completely overhaul an ingrained movement that occurs mostly in our subconscious mind. And he was on the Champion's Tour--and on top for several years! Why tinker with it?

He was NOT popular on either tour, BTW. Apparently has sort of a prickly personality like Sam Snead.

Larry

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Ask any teaching pro with video. They VERY reluctantly pull up his swing because he makes the same mistakes most amateurs do-- He gets the club up too steep and downswings a little OTT. He doesn't make much of a transition weight shift and he doesn't generate much clubhead speed. He doesn't hit it very far. Obviouly he doesn't slice too often, but he probably had to make a tiny compensation to prevent that. Not ideal--and DEFINITELY not what they want to teach.

Hale Irwin was a college ACADEMIC All American. Smart dude. He knows his swing is not perfect, but he probably knew that looking at it could only hurt-- since it is VERY difficult to completely overhaul an ingrained movement that occurs mostly in our subconscious mind. And he was on the Champion's Tour--and on top for several years! Why tinker with it?

He was NOT popular on either tour, BTW. Apparently has sort of a prickly personality like Sam Snead.

Larry

I'm from Missouri on this one Larry. I've been watching professional golf for 45 years and I've never heard anyone make a negative comment about Irwin's swing. I have heard that he's a prickly sort though.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

I'm from Missouri on this one Larry. I've been watching professional golf for 45 years and I've never heard anyone make a negative comment about Irwin's swing. I have heard that he's a prickly sort though.

Well, just ask any teaching pro that uses video. Ask him to compare your swing to Hale Irwin's. In my experience they ALL hate Hale's swing for the reasons I listed previously. He does what most amateurs do--and got by with it! They hate that because he would NOT take golf lessons and won with a poor swing.

In fact in every golf DB, NOBODY wants to admit that Hale Irwin was a world-class winner, the best EVER on the Champion's tour, winning THREE TIMES as much as the great Lee Trevino. Those who think they are better golfers because they hit it far just HATE that Hale and Corey Pavin and a few others win even while driving it only a few yards farther than we do. The "club snobs" who play ONLY Mizuno forged blades with stiff shafts, HATE that those guys play OS cavity back irons with graphite shafts--and could give any of them 5 a side and take their house!

My point is that winning does not require a perfect classic golf swing--nor distance.

Larry

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Well, just ask any teaching pro that uses video. Ask him to compare your swing to Hale Irwin's. In my experience they ALL hate Hale's swing for the reasons I listed previously. He does what most amateurs do--and got by with it! They hate that because he would NOT take golf lessons and won with a poor swing.

Sorry Larry but it's not a "poor swing" if it's as repeatable and accurate as Hale Irwin's has been his entire career. It may not meet with their approval because it's not perfect but it sure works perfectly well for him.

[CoachB]

Just to stir the pot.....can you show me what "the perfect swing" looks like? Will it look the same next week, month, year?

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by CoachB

Just to stir the pot.....can you show me what "the perfect swing" looks like? Will it look the same next week, month, year?

The teaching pros would say that our swing should be as efficient as we can make it-- so that we will be able to hit it straight and long for as many years as we can play golf. The better the swing, the fewer the injuries.

So we should endeavor to avoid wasting energy in any movement that does not propel the golf ball toward our target. That means we need to swing it down on plane and accelerate it through the ball with the clubhead correctly aligned.

As we all know, the golf swing looks ridiculously easy for some folks. At my club those who "make it look easy" are former touring pros...ERGO, we should endeavor to do it like they do. And I am trying to do that.

AND they don't do anything difficult or mysterious. They just keep it on plane and allow their wrists to set and release naturally through impact. That's it. They hit the fairways and greens in regulation and shoot par or below.

And just getting close to that would be enough for me. I've had a lot of lessons, so I know how to do it--I know when I don't do it and the cause-- So for me, the tension after a lesson is more counterproductive than the lesson's reminders are helpful.

Larry

[TwillDog]

I think lessons always help. While I haven't had one in quite some time, I still remember things from my very first lesson and when I break down I go back to that lesson and incorporate some of the simple things I learned then. In my life, I have had less than 12 lessons, but have taken something from all of them, all important things and all things that I wouldn't have worked on without a pro pointing out the flaw. Yes, I read books and magazine articles and take things from there also. And I work on my own on things that haven't been taught to me. There are some people who can absolutely improve to a highly skilled level without any outside help; I feel that those folks are prodigies though - that their level of skill and aptitude are not the same as the vast majority of people who play. And I think to "finish" your work, lessons may be necessary - when you get to Level B which is really good but want to get to Level A which is true proficiency, lessons can help. Even if you are a good player it may be good to take a lesson to help you understand what you are doing well and why you are doing it so when you invariably have a bit of breakdown you can refind what you've lost.

As for video, one man's poison is another's elixir. I've heard of pros who absolutely hate video because it makes the swing mechanical and eliminates the "feel" of the game. I know many who swear by video because it gives you the opportunity to truly see what it is you are doing, full body wise and and at full speed and in slow motion with a ball there. Some are drill masters, others want you to work out in the swing what you need to feel. There isn't any one right way to teach, as there isn't one right way to learn. I think sometimes even here on this forum we get caught up in absolutes; there is little absoulte in golf, similar to life. The only absolute in golf is you must have the clubface square to the target line at impact for the ball to go straight down that target line. Everything else is up for debate.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by TwillDog

I think lessons always help. While I haven't had one in quite some time, I still remember things from my very first lesson and when I break down I go back to that lesson and incorporate some of the simple things I learned then. In my life, I have had less than 12 lessons, but have taken something from all of them, all important things and all things that I wouldn't have worked on without a pro pointing out the flaw. Yes, I read books and magazine articles and take things from there also. And I work on my own on things that haven't been taught to me. There are some people who can absolutely improve to a highly skilled level without any outside help; I feel that those folks are prodigies though - that their level of skill and aptitude are not the same as the vast majority of people who play. And I think to "finish" your work, lessons may be necessary - when you get to Level B which is really good but want to get to Level A which is true proficiency, lessons can help. Even if you are a good player it may be good to take a lesson to help you understand what you are doing well and why you are doing it so when you invariably have a bit of breakdown you can refind what you've lost.

As for video, one man's poison is another's elixir. I've heard of pros who absolutely hate video because it makes the swing mechanical and eliminates the "feel" of the game. I know many who swear by video because it gives you the opportunity to truly see what it is you are doing, full body wise and and at full speed and in slow motion with a ball there. Some are drill masters, others want you to work out in the swing what you need to feel. There isn't any one right way to teach, as there isn't one right way to learn. I think sometimes even here on this forum we get caught up in absolutes; there is little absoulte in golf, similar to life. The only absolute in golf is you must have the clubface square to the target line at impact for the ball to go straight down that target line. Everything else is up for debate.

Hi Twill,

Well, as I said, when you know what you are in for, when you are ready to start a program of drills and range sessions to ingrain the change, lessons are the shortest path to a better swing. No doubt. Pros take lessons. Good players do more drills than they full shots. They do what serious musical instrument players do to improve, instead of playing whole tunes, they do "etudes" to focus on difficult parts. Serious tennis players work against a machine or a pro--the "just hit" instead of playing regular games. They want to focus on their weaknesses, backhand to backhand, etc.

But if you are not happy with your swing (who is?) BUT know you would NOT see a whole program of drills and range sessions through--then why start down that road? No doubt you will play MUCH worse the day after the lesson because ANY change for an established golf swing introduces doubt and confusion. A golf swing is a mixture of deliberate and subconscious movements. Our conscious brain controls the setup and slow portions, after the first part of the backswing the subconscious takes over to finish the backswing and the downswing. When there is doubt and confusion instead of confident commitment, nothing good can happen.

Just my $.02 Good luck!

I am playing tomorrow and I will be making a loosey goosey free and easy relaxed swing. Life is too short to sweat this stuff.

Larry

[diabloadsit]

I am shooting about 100 from a 160. I just started this season and have progressed that far in one short Maine summer. I have yet to take lessons and am trying not to.

[VancouverGolf]

Originally Posted by diabloadsit

I am shooting about 100 from a 160. I just started this season and have progressed that far in one short Maine summer. I have yet to take lessons and am trying not to.

Yes, well...

...the first 60 strokes off your score are the easiest.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by diabloadsit

I am shooting about 100 from a 160. I just started this season and have progressed that far in one short Maine summer. I have yet to take lessons and am trying not to.

At the risk of bursting your bubble, getting to around 100 the 1st year, while good, is not all that unusual. Taking off strokes gets exponentially harder from there. Good luck.

[Golfaddict]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

At the risk of bursting your bubble, getting to around 100 the 1st year, while good, is not all that unusual. Taking off strokes gets exponentially harder from there. Good luck.

I agree. When I started 16 years ago, I began in mid summer. By fall I was breaking 100. During my second year I was breaking 90. Then it took about 10 years for me to break 80. I haven't broke 70 yet, and I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.

[Blue_Arc]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

ATaking off strokes gets exponentially harder from there. Good luck.

Man you got that right...

[dday39]

Great topic. Here's my 2 cents.
As to your first question; can a low to mid handicapper improve from lessons? Try playing lessons. A pro might help you figure your way around the course to save you some strokes. Getting mechnical about the swing can screw you up.
My experience-(BTW, I'm a high handicapper)
Over a year ago I bought the Stack & Tilt DVDs. I saw the article in GD and figured this seemed simple. The DVDs cover so much more than the article. After about 4-6 months of working the pattern, I went to see a pro and got a swing analysis. I hadn't been hitting the driver well. The pro convinced me to go to more of a conventional swing. My handicap ballooned from 24 to 27. Oh No!
About a month ago I went back to my S&T DVDs and starting doing more research. I was able to pick up the pieces I was missing in order to hit the longer clubs and get the push/draw S&T promotes. I'm still working.
The moral to this novel of a post; talk to some instructors. Find someone who has some ideas that you like. Instructors and golf swings are not one size fits all.

[Caddie36]

In my opinion they help a ton. I am a mid handicapper myself, I can shoot in the upper 70's one day, to the high 80's the next. My 2 cents on lessons is this. I take them, probably 2 to 3 times a month, for a few of reasons. 1) the place I go has three different camera angles from which you view your swing. 2) the instructor doesn't try to get me to fit into a certain swing, he has helped me getting on plane, we are still working on a better first move towards the ball. Finally the third reason is this, the things that I need to work on are very hard to feel, but with the camera angles I can actually SEE what I am doing wrong.

I hope that this helps.....

Take care

Caddie36

[poe4soul]

Originally Posted by diabloadsit

I have yet to take lessons and am trying not to.

I really don't see how not taking lessons take any effort at all. I try to not do many things very successfully with no effort at all. In fact I'm trying to not do work at this very moment very successfully.

But seriously, there are many things in life you can learn on your own. While doing it solo has pride, it would seem to me that if you have intelligence, and don't have limitations, like money or access to lessons, why wouldn't you want to learn from someone with experience? This isn't only in terms of golf. It could be any endeavor like playing a musical instrument , learning a trade, or getting an education, etc.

[kvsmith59]

I need to go back for some lessons. It's been years since I took them...only problem is it seems like everytime I've taken lessons, I play horribly for a few months afterwards....

[Dandman74]

Originally Posted by kvsmith59

I need to go back for some lessons. It's been years since I took them...only problem is it seems like everytime I've taken lessons, I play horribly for a few months afterwards....

This is a terrible thing to warn a golfer seeking improvement in his or her game. The reason why a golfer's swing regresses immediately after making changes is because the golf swing is pure muscle memory. During a lesson, especially one given to someone who has been playing for some time on their own, a PGA Professional will suggest changes for that person's habitual swing. The flaws in the person's swing are bad habits and it takes time for the new changes to become muscle memory. You have to keep consciously practicing your new changes for them to translate into effective game improvement.

I have a feeling that for those few months that your swing regressed, you did not spend enough time on a range applying those recommendations to your swing. My guess is that you played round after round and tried to make swing changes on the fly. Then after poor play, you disregarded the changes and went back to your own, habitual swing.

Look at Paddy Harrington. He won three majors and decided to address a small flaw in his swing. He took almost a year to successfully break bad habits and institute new ones. Find an interview of him now and he is very glad that he did it and I would not be surprised to find another shiny cup on his mantle in 2k10.

Give your PGA Professional a chance and take your lumps on the range, not the course.

Cheers!

[poe4soul]

Originally Posted by Dandman74

This is a terrible thing to warn a golfer seeking improvement in his or her game. The reason why a golfer's swing regresses immediately after making changes is because the golf swing is pure muscle memory. During a lesson, especially one given to someone who has been playing for some time on their own, a PGA Professional will suggest changes for that person's habitual swing. The flaws in the person's swing are bad habits and it takes time for the new changes to become muscle memory. You have to keep consciously practicing your new changes for them to translate into effective game improvement.

I have a feeling that for those few months that your swing regressed, you did not spend enough time on a range applying those recommendations to your swing. My guess is that you played round after round and tried to make swing changes on the fly. Then after poor play, you disregarded the changes and went back to your own, habitual swing.

Look at Paddy Harrington. He won three majors and decided to address a small flaw in his swing. He took almost a year to successfully break bad habits and institute new ones. Find an interview of him now and he is very glad that he did it and I would not be surprised to find another shiny cup on his mantle in 2k10.

Give your PGA Professional a chance and take your lumps on the range, not the course.

Cheers!

Well said D-74. Most of us have swing flaws that are tendencies. Rather it's lining up open or closed, or coming over the top, or whatever it might be. We will usually regress to these swing tendencies if there is not something to reinforce the correct positions or moves. Usually waggles, or practice swings to exaggerate the correct positions.

Or sometimes it's the complete opposite. You might have a flaw like taking the club out to in. You take a lesson and start to correct the move and the brain will actually keep trying to make the correction even past the point of an on plane swing. Now you've overcompensated to an flat inside to out move.

Rarely a person can take a couple of lessons and get a fix. It takes a series of minor adjustments for a swing to be ingrained.

[Jarrod Bailey]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

Say you are fairly accomplished, a mid-handicap golfer who scores in the middle 80s from either blue or white. You hit most fairways and half the greens, have a tragedy hole nearly every round.

Can you improve with lessons? WOULD you rigorously do the drills and adhere to the swing changes a pro WOULD suggest?

Or would your view of yourself on video screw you up? Would you play worse for weeks or months as a result of that lesson-- and your inability to see the required ingraining of the changes through?

So why take the lesson? Why put yourself through another round of trying to incorporate a change, tensing up, thinking on the tee, etc. etc.

"Ignorance is bliss" probably applies in this scenario because if you think you are swinging well enough, if you are hitting fairways and a few greens, if you are relaxed and having fun-- why fix what ain't broken? WHO CARES that you get the club too steep, that you occasionally swing OTT, that you can't always finish on balance, etc??? Your opponents love that your swing has defects-- but they HATE that the ball often goes straight anyhow!!!

BTW, Hale Irwin probably needed lessons. Teaching pro friends say his swing was awful, OTT, etc. But Hale refused to let anyone "help" him, he refused to look at his swing on video, he just played with what he had-- and he won $15 MILLION on the Champion's tour.

Food for though, hey?

Larry

Hi Larry,

Your raise a good point. Do we need 'technical lessons'. If like you say we are fairly accomplished hit a decent number of Fairways I.R and G.I.R then to get better and shoot lower scores is it we need to all of a sudden make major changes to our swing and technique or it is that we just need to be able to replicate the already effective swing we have when we are nailing the drive straight down the middle 250 yards or the swing when we leave our 6 iron 6 feet under the hole?

If we have already hit good solid shots, do we really need to be changing our swing or would our time and effort be better spent on being able to reproduce the swing that works a higher percentage of the time.

If we can strike tee shots solidly and accurately once then its not some physical or technique issue that holds our game back but rather (at least in my opinion) our mental game. If we focus our effort on ensuring the mental game we bring to the golf course suppports better golf, it stands to reason as we are physically capable of playing well that with a more supportive mental game, we will actually play better.

Your thoughts?

[petermo]

To answer the question - it depends:

1. If you're starting to play lessons are very helpful in learning the basics and your golfing ability will improve rapidly provided that you're committed to a series of lessons, practice and drills.

2. As you progress, lessons with the same teacher help to ensure that no bad habits develop or those that have are eliminated. Changing teachers is not a good idea until one has a repeating swing, and if reasonably taught it will be fairly sound.

3. After learning a "solid" repeating swing, the next key to scoring is the short game - an area that is almost totally neglected when a player thinks about taking lessons. IMO any player who can break 90 can likely shave 10 strokes per round off his score by having lessons to develop a good technique from 30 yards.

4. The advanced player can benefit from refinement of his technique which will be ingrained and not easily altered. Most decent pros will not try to radically change a low handicap players swing since most amateurs don't have the time to ingrain the necessary new habits. They will however usually advise the use of drills (slow motion, mirror, part swing etc.,) to promote consistent feel.

In a nutshell, if you can play the game competently (single figures) lessons can help if they're used to remind you of basics - grip, posture, balance, weight distribution and so on. They will do harm if a pro has a formulaic approach and expects everyone to conform - can anyone imagine the result if David Leadbetter tried to teach Jim Furyk to swing a club?

[poe4soul]

Originally Posted by petermo

To answer the question - it depends:

1. If you're starting to play lessons are very helpful in learning the basics and your golfing ability will improve rapidly provided that you're committed to a series of lessons, practice and drills.

2. As you progress, lessons with the same teacher help to ensure that no bad habits develop or those that have are eliminated. Changing teachers is not a good idea until one has a repeating swing, and if reasonably taught it will be fairly sound.

3. After learning a "solid" repeating swing, the next key to scoring is the short game - an area that is almost totally neglected when a player thinks about taking lessons. IMO any player who can break 90 can likely shave 10 strokes per round off his score by having lessons to develop a good technique from 30 yards.

4. The advanced player can benefit from refinement of his technique which will be ingrained and not easily altered. Most decent pros will not try to radically change a low handicap players swing since most amateurs don't have the time to ingrain the necessary new habits. They will however usually advise the use of drills (slow motion, mirror, part swing etc.,) to promote consistent feel.

In a nutshell, if you can play the game competently (single figures) lessons can help if they're used to remind you of basics - grip, posture, balance, weight distribution and so on. They will do harm if a pro has a formulaic approach and expects everyone to conform - can anyone imagine the result if David Leadbetter tried to teach Jim Furyk to swing a club?

I agree with most of this. The only reason I could see making a major swing change would be if your current swing could cause injury like a chicken wing, reverse c, etc. There are many moves that you can get away with when you are young but as you get older can be problemmatic and could shorten your golfing 'career'.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by poe4soul

I agree with most of this. The only reason I could see making a major swing change would be if your current swing could cause injury like a chicken wing, reverse c, etc. There are many moves that you can get away with when you are young but as you get older can be problemmatic and could shorten your golfing 'career'.

I was able to score when I played every day. I was unaware that my swing was awful, but I had found a way to get the ball down the fairway and when I missed the greens my short game was sharp enough to get me up and down--to recover again and again.

But then I took some lessons and saw my swing on video--and realized I was OTT every swing-- the club shaft appeared on my neck instead of between shoulder and elbow. I was swiping across the ball from outside-to-in, imparting slice spin and slowly developing compensations to get the ball to go straight. I was a typical handicap golfer-- and when I played often was able to score below 80. But I hated that. I was determined to swing on plane, to learn to bring the clubhead from the inside like good players do.

So I learned that the essence of a repeating functional golf swing--on plane-- is about our ability to "drop it under." Several books have whole sections about that-- and you'll find many references.

SLAP page 139. If you can't start with hips, you WILL start with shoulders. OTT.

Larry

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

I was able to score when I played every day. I was unaware that my swing was awful, but I had found a way to get the ball down the fairway and when I missed the greens my short game was sharp enough to get me up and down--to recover again and again.

But then I took some lessons and saw my swing on video--and realized I was OTT every swing-- the club shaft appeared on my neck instead of between shoulder and elbow. I was swiping across the ball from outside-to-in, imparting slice spin and slowly developing compensations to get the ball to go straight. I was a typical handicap golfer-- and when I played often was able to score below 80. But I hated that. I was determined to swing on plane, to learn to bring the clubhead from the inside like good players do.

So I learned that the essence of a repeating functional golf swing--on plane-- is about our ability to "drop it under." Several books have whole sections about that-- and you'll find many references.

SLAP page 139. If you can't start with hips, you WILL start with shoulders. OTT.

Larry

Hey Larry,

Read the top of page 31 of this book of yours. What does that suggest to you about the "approach from the inside" thing that you are forever going on about? To me it suggests that you can overdo it. If someone approaches from too far inside, then follows advice that is tailored to you (who approaches from too far outside), what do you think is going to happen? Will they improve? Or will they get worse?

[Leaguegolf]

You may have noticed that a couple of posts were removed. There's no need to get nasty.