How many shots has this guy played?

[Ty_Webb]

This apparently happened in a local junior tournament.

Player hits his drive into trees down the left of the hole.
Plays a provisional into the fairway.
Finds his ball and plays it out ahead of where the provisional was.
Picks up his provisional.
Goes to play his next shot and realises it's not his ball.
Goes back to look for his tee shot, but can't find it.
Goes back to the tee and plays another.

What does he lie? Clue: It's a LOT.

[JungleJ]

Let's just hope he's playing a match so he can pick up and move to the next hole!

[JungleJ]

Well let's start counting:

1 - the original tee shot
2 - penalty for making a stroke at a wrong ball (Rule 15-3)
3 - see 2

Now he must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball, or by proceeding under the Rules. In this case his original tee shot is lost so:

4 - one stroke penalty for lost ball.

Now he must play another shot from the tee. He has played a provisional ball, so:

5 - the provisional ball is now in play

The problem is he has picked up his provisional ball that is now in play. I think Rule 18 (Ball at Rest Moved) applies, so he should replace the provisional and incurs:

6 - one stroke penalty for moving the ball

I am starting to get a bit hazy, but I guess that by playing a THIRD tee shot he incurs:

7 & 8 - another two stroke penalty for a wrong ball.

His first provisional is still the ball in play, so he must now correct his mistake by replacing it and proceed hitting 9.

In all likelihood this player completed the hole, teed off on the next and so would be disqualified.

[Ty_Webb]

It's something like that. He plays three off the tee, plus the two shots for the wrong ball giving five. Picks up the provisional, six. He should replace the provisional and play his 7th from there. At this point, I think it's fairly clear.

After that though, I start to get confused. Your explanation may well be correct. Another possibility is that he by default declared his provisional unplayable and was correct to play from the tee again, at that point taking a stroke and distance penalty, so playing his 7th from the tee, but then a further two strokes for not explaining what he was doing to his playing partner(s). I wouldn't class this as honest, although perhaps he could argue he was doing it outwith his own knowledge or intent.

Anyone else?

[JungleJ]

The third tee shot, I think, incurs a two stroke penalty regardless. By playing from there he is also playing from a wrong place (Rule 20-7), again a two stroke penalty and he must correct his mistake. He still has to replace the provisional he picked up and is lying 8, hitting 9.

I think.

[Fourputt]

Tee shot - 1 stroke.

Provisional - 0 strokes (so far)

Played wrong ball - 2 stroke penalty - total = 3

Provisional becomes ball in play as original is never found - 1 stroke penalty, 1 stroke for playing it. Total = 5

Lifted Provisional incorrectly and failed to replace it - 2 strokes - Total = 7

Played a 3rd ball from tee - 2 stroke penalty for wrong place and he plays the ball as it lies (playing from a wrong place you do NOT correct the mistake), finishing the hole with that ball (hopefully). He is subject to disqualification if it was deemed a serious breach, but in this case it is not as no advantage was gained, although the circumstances need to be reported to the committee before the card is signed and returned - Total = 9.

One more stroke for the shot - Total =10

My answer: He's lying 10 playing 11.

It's stuff like this that inspired me to only serve 4 years on my club's Rules Committee. The pressure is enormous, and you never get congratulated, only castigated.

Sometimes when these situations arise, I'd rather be playing a match. If it was match play it's a simple call. He loses the hole for playing a wrong ball.... end of story.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Tee shot - 1 stroke.

Provisional - 0 strokes (so far)

Played wrong ball - 2 stroke penalty - total = 3

Provisional becomes ball in play as original is never found - 1 stroke penalty, 1 stroke for playing it. Total = 5

Lifted Provisional incorrectly and failed to replace it - 2 strokes - Total = 7

Played a 3rd ball from tee - 2 stroke penalty for wrong place and he plays the ball as it lies (playing from a wrong place you do NOT correct the mistake), finishing the hole with that ball (hopefully). He is subject to disqualification if it was deemed a serious breach, but in this case it is not as no advantage was gained, although the circumstances need to be reported to the committee before the card is signed and returned - Total = 9.

One more stroke for the shot - Total =10

My answer: He's lying 10 playing 11.

It's stuff like this that inspired me to only serve 4 years on my club's Rules Committee. The pressure is enormous, and you never get congratulated, only castigated.

Sometimes when these situations arise, I'd rather be playing a match. If it was match play it's a simple call. He loses the hole for playing a wrong ball.... end of story.

Thank you Fourputt. I've waited years to find a satisfactory and complete answer to this question. Just one addendum: If the ball he went back to the tee and played was not the same as his provisional, would there be additional penalties for playing the wrong ball? If he put the provisional in his bag, he might well have pulled a different one.

[jcgolfpro]

No additional penalties would be incurred regardless of ball played from the tee for the 3rd tee shot. I believe fourputt is right in this confusing situation.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by jcgolfpro

No additional penalties would be incurred regardless of ball played from the tee for the 3rd tee shot. I believe fourputt is right in this confusing situation.

I was under the impression that you couldn't substitute a ball in play. Therefore if he didn't use the same ball, not only has he played from the wrong place, but he's also substituted a ball in play, which I would expect to have further penalties attached.

Might be wrong though. I'm interested to hear your justification of that.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

Thank you Fourputt. I've waited years to find a satisfactory and complete answer to this question. Just one addendum: If the ball he went back to the tee and played was not the same as his provisional, would there be additional penalties for playing the wrong ball? If he put the provisional in his bag, he might well have pulled a different one.

Only if a one ball local rule was invoked, and even then it only has to be the same brand and model. This is very rare in amateur tournaments. I've never seen it in any tournament I've played.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Lifted Provisional incorrectly and failed to replace it - 2 strokes - Total = 7

Can you help? As I read Rule 20 the penalty for lifting and not replacing properly is 1 stroke, not two. Am I invoking the right rule here?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JungleJ

Can you help? As I read Rule 20 the penalty for lifting and not replacing properly is 1 stroke, not two. Am I invoking the right rule here?

From the Rules of Golf:


Penalty for Breach of Rule 20-1, -2 or -3:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

From the Rules of Golf:


Penalty for Breach of Rule 20-1, -2 or -3:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.

Thanks - the R&A online Rules application doesn't show this bit!

[Texas Wedge]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Only if a one ball local rule was invoked, and even then it only has to be the same brand and model. This is very rare in amateur tournaments. I've never seen it in any tournament I've played.

My home course MGA tournaments sometimes use the one ball rule. I don't like when they do that since I typically lose a lot of balls OB on that course.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Tee shot - 1 stroke.

Provisional - 0 strokes (so far)

Played wrong ball - 2 stroke penalty - total = 3

Provisional becomes ball in play as original is never found - 1 stroke penalty, 1 stroke for playing it. Total = 5

Lifted Provisional incorrectly and failed to replace it - 2 strokes - Total = 7

Played a 3rd ball from tee - 2 stroke penalty for wrong place and he plays the ball as it lies (playing from a wrong place you do NOT correct the mistake), finishing the hole with that ball (hopefully). He is subject to disqualification if it was deemed a serious breach, but in this case it is not as no advantage was gained, although the circumstances need to be reported to the committee before the card is signed and returned - Total = 9.

One more stroke for the shot - Total =10

My answer: He's lying 10 playing 11.

It's stuff like this that inspired me to only serve 4 years on my club's Rules Committee. The pressure is enormous, and you never get congratulated, only castigated.

Sometimes when these situations arise, I'd rather be playing a match. If it was match play it's a simple call. He loses the hole for playing a wrong ball.... end of story.

I asked someone on the rules committee of the R&A this question and he said something similar to you, except he mentioned that you can't get too penalties for one breach, so the failing to replace the provisional and playing from the wrong spot are effectively the same breach, so he would in fact have played one shot less. I think anyway.