Inane golf rules

[ju5tin99]

I read this article about a situation with Boo Weekly at last week's Bay Hill tournament: http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/...600362,00.html

Why are there rules like this in the golf rulebook? This is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The guy was aiding a competitor to avoid taking penalty strokes, and ends up earning two of his own. I mean this was just about one of the best displays of sportsmanship that Boo could have made, and he ends up getting penalized for it. All I have to say is to the USGA or PGA or whichever group of nitwits came up with this.

[deronsizemore]

I wish people at home and in the crowd would stop trying to be rules officials and just watch the dang tournament. I mean really, they need to put an end to these people who have no life and nothing better to do but sit and watch a tournament to see if rules infraction took place. Especially one like this where Boo was doing the right thing...or trying to.

[Fourputt]

Neither player involved did the right thing. Johnson was foolish to play a stroke on the green with the flagstick untended, and then Boo was completely in the wrong for pulling it out. When pros don't know the rules of thier own game, then I have zero sympathy for them, regardless of motive. There are times when what he did would have been legal, i.e. if the ball was clearly not rolling anywhere near where it might hit the hole. But the rule is quite clear that you can't take any action which might influence the movement of a ball in motion, other than by moving a player's equipment out of the way. The flagstick is not "equipment", thus once the ball is in motion, you can't remove an untended flagstick unless it is certain that ball has no possibility of hitting it. Regardless of whether you like the rule or not, it is a rule, it isn't some obscure decision, and a person who makes his living at golf should know the rules of the game better than Boo Weekley apparently does.

The pertinent Rule:

17-1 Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up

Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.
If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player’s ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I wish people at home and in the crowd would stop trying to be rules officials and just watch the dang tournament. I mean really, they need to put an end to these people who have no life and nothing better to do but sit and watch a tournament to see if rules infraction took place. Especially one like this where Boo was doing the right thing...or trying to.

You might be interested to learn that callins are encouraged by the tv networks.

CBS pays viewers $25,000 for every infraction spotted. The first caller wins. Our Coordinating Producer, Lance Barrow, will be glad to give you his cell phone number so you can call if you see anything untoward going on.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...489139,00.html

[ju5tin99]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Regardless of whether you like the rule or not, it is a rule, it isn't some obscure decision, and a person who makes his living at golf should know the rules of the game better than Boo Weekley apparently does.

I wasn't questioning Boo's knowledge of the rules. Since it is his job he should undoubtedly know the rules that define the job he's doing. I just want to know who comes up with this stuff. What group of old farts sat around a table and decided that if someone's competitor pulled the flag for them, then the person should be assessed a two stroke penalty?

Most of the rules are great and do a lot of good for the game, but I just can't think of a case where not allowing someone's competitor to pull the flag for them when they're shooting from the green would be a necessary rule to have. This to me is like the cites that still have laws about the proper knot to be used to tie your horse up outside the bar. Just get rid of 'em. Don't regulate what doesn't need to be regulated.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by ju5tin99

I wasn't questioning Boo's knowledge of the rules. Since it is his job he should undoubtedly know the rules that define the job he's doing. I just want to know who comes up with this stuff. What group of old farts sat around a table and decided that if someone's competitor pulled the flag for them, then the person should be assessed a two stroke penalty?

Most of the rules are great and do a lot of good for the game, but I just can't think of a case where not allowing someone's competitor to pull the flag for them when they're shooting from the green would be a necessary rule to have. This to me is like the cites that still have laws about the proper knot to be used to tie your horse up outside the bar. Just get rid of 'em. Don't regulate what doesn't need to be regulated.

Actually the pertinent rule has been relaxed from the way it used to read. At one time you couldn't pull the untended flagstick at all once the stroke had started. Now it reads that you can't do so only if it would influence the movement of the ball. Influencing the movement of the ball other than by a stroke is a key prohibition in the Rules, and this is just a consistent extension of that prohibition.

And the ages of the people on the rules committees for the USGA and R&A have nothing to do with how the rules are written or defined. The Rules protect the integrity of the game as a whole, and sometimes that means that specific incidents may not seem fair. The rules have grown from the 13 that were the first known documented rules in 1745 (and if you want to play a weird game, play by those rules) to what we have today, mostly to encompass necessary changes in courses and equipment, and to cover the many and varied situations that players have found themselves in over the last 2-1/2 centuries. The Rules set forth the parameters by which players around the world can play and talk about the game, and measure and compare individual performances using a common yardstick. But never in the history of the game has there been any requirement that the rules be fair, only that they apply equally to all players in similar situations.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

You might be interested to learn that callins are encouraged by the tv networks.

CBS pays viewers $25,000 for every infraction spotted. The first caller wins. Our Coordinating Producer, Lance Barrow, will be glad to give you his cell phone number so you can call if you see anything untoward going on.

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline...489139,00.html

Again, that's crazy. It's no wonder then that there are so many idiots calling in, especially if they think they can get 25,000 for doing so.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Again, that's crazy. It's no wonder then that there are so many idiots calling in, especially if they think they can get 25,000 for doing so.

Feherty wrote that and he really shouldn't joke about that sort of thing. There are already too many doing it for free.

[jcgolfpro]

Yeah, Feherty was joking...the do not pay for call-ins. The PGA TOUR says the vast majority of call-ins are WRONG. So, instead, we get the mundane towel protecting pants (you will never convince me otherwise that he gained an advantage keeping his pants clean) or something else of that sort. I have yet to hear of anyone getting caught by a call-in for something that THEY GAINED AN ADVANTAGE ON. I'm still waiting...

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by jcgolfpro

Yeah, Feherty was joking...the do not pay for call-ins. The PGA TOUR says the vast majority of call-ins are WRONG. So, instead, we get the mundane towel protecting pants (you will never convince me otherwise that he gained an advantage keeping his pants clean) or something else of that sort. I have yet to hear of anyone getting caught by a call-in for something that THEY GAINED AN ADVANTAGE ON. I'm still waiting...

Would you feel the same had Stadler out a couple of boards down to kneel on?

Isn't the prevention of a player gaining an illegal advantage the whole point of calling in?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by jcgolfpro

Yeah, Feherty was joking...the do not pay for call-ins. The PGA TOUR says the vast majority of call-ins are WRONG. So, instead, we get the mundane towel protecting pants (you will never convince me otherwise that he gained an advantage keeping his pants clean) or something else of that sort. I have yet to hear of anyone getting caught by a call-in for something that THEY GAINED AN ADVANTAGE ON. I'm still waiting...

Are you saying a rule should only be enforced if the player actually gained an advantage?

[jcgolfpro]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Are you saying a rule should only be enforced if the player actually gained an advantage?

No, not at all. I am saying that I have yet to hear of a person calling in that viewed a player gaining a distinct advantage over the field. The rules should be followed at all times by all players.

I have made my stance on call-ins by amateur rules officials quite clear. As I stated before, the PGA TOUR Rules Officials have even stated that the vast majority of call-ins are WRONG. So those guys that are supposed to be monitoring the many screens in the media trailer have to chase their tails reviewing replays looking for a supposed violation that wasn't...makes sense to me. While doing this, they could miss a violation NOT televised and therefore not called in. I am for all of the players being on an even playing field and holding those televised shots to a higher standard doesn't even the playing field. Remember, we are not talking about people intentionally cheating...the ones violating rules often times do not even know they are doing it...so someone taking an illegal drop on the same hole 2 hours before gets no penalty because he wasn't televised and no one noticed but the player being televised that does the same thing gets nailed...definitely NOT EQUITABLE treatment under the rules in that both situations weren't treated alike...

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by jcgolfpro

Remember, we are not talking about people intentionally cheating...the ones violating rules often times do not even know they are doing it...so someone taking an illegal drop on the same hole 2 hours before gets no penalty because he wasn't televised and no one noticed but the player being televised that does the same thing gets nailed...definitely NOT EQUITABLE treatment under the rules in that both situations weren't treated alike...

So that means it's more important when a player commits a rules infraction than it is how he committed the infraction? I was always under the impression that an infraction was an infraction regardless of when it occurred or who witnessed it. It's like the old tree falling in the woods question. Is it an infraction if no one is aware of it?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by jcgolfpro

No, not at all. I am saying that I have yet to hear of a person calling in that viewed a player gaining a distinct advantage over the field. The rules should be followed at all times by all players.

I guess we understand penalties differently.

The purpose of penalties is to deter or correct the potential advantage that could be gained if the rule was not followed. This means there are times when a penalty applies when there is no actual advantage gained. (Think of the complexity of proving whether an actual advantage is gained in a given case. Assuming it could be done, it would take hours.)

[Penalties are not intended to punish the player. The original 13 rules of 1744 express this idea well: If your Ball comes among watter, or any wattery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball & bringing it behind the hazard and Teeing it, you may play it with any Club and allow your Adversary a Stroke for so getting out your Ball.

You can clearly see that the stroke is designed to offset the advantage the player got by being able to take his ball out of the hazard when he would otherwise have to play it as it lies.]

Or, put another way, every time a caller reports a rules infraction it is because an advantage might be gained. That might not be his intention, but it is the reason the penalty is applied. Thus, everytime there is an infraction, the field might be disadvantaged. The purpose of the penalty stroke is to transfer that disadvantage to the player who caused it.

I think the reason so many people have a problem with callins is because they focus on the wrong thing, They think it is unfair for one player to suffer because he happened to be on camera. But that is not the focus of the rules. Penalties are applied because it is unfair to the rest of the field to let the potential advantage go uncorrected. That is why callins have to be acted on. If they were not, it would be the same as a conscious choice to disadvantage the field. No self respecting rules official can do that. When he is aware of a breach he HAS to act on it.

The only solution is to unplug the phones so he does not know what the viewer saw. If your friend is right that they are innundated with calls that take away from their duties, why do they answer them?

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

The only solution is to unplug the phones so he does not know what the viewer saw. If your friend is right that they are innundated with calls that take away from their duties, why do they answer them?

They shouldn't. At least they shouldn't be compelled to track down and review any alleged violation called in. JC made the best case I've heard thus far for ignoring the call ins. Most are a waste of time and they take the officials away from their jobs at hand.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

They shouldn't. At least they shouldn't be compelled to track down and review any alleged violation called in. JC made the best case I've heard thus far for ignoring the call ins. Most are a waste of time and they take the officials away from their jobs at hand.

I read his post differently. He said the callins take the tv technicians away from their jobs.

The job of a rules official is to iinvestigate reports of rules violations no matter where they come from.

[Fileygolfer]

I have read many threads on many golf Forums about the RofG and it seems there is a trend of trying to find fault with the Tour Guys and the RofG.
This is now also moved into Call-ins.
What happens when (like in a ET event last year) the on-course Rules Official gives the wrong ruling and a player drops his ball in the wrong place and completes his round, is he DQ'd?
NO!
Now lets say something else with tonge in cheek.
"Is it not using an Outside Agency to take a phone call on what was seen on a telecast?"

[jcgolfpro]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

I read his post differently. He said the callins take the tv technicians away from their jobs.

The job of a rules official is to iinvestigate reports of rules violations no matter where they come from.

Sorry, there are Rules Officials viewing the monitors as well as the ones on the course. Here at the MCI, 3-4 local professionals monitor those monitors. Regardless of what is on TV, the monitors are still displaying what is going on around the course. Although they are not physically present at each shot, they are watching...Big Brother is ALWAYS watching . Seriously though, THOSE are the folks that get pulled away from their jobs by having to chase through replays rather than watching their 3-4 monitors that are live. The colleague in question last year said there were 0 call-ins that resulted in penalties and yes, sometimes they DON'T answer their outside line phone.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

They shouldn't. At least they shouldn't be compelled to track down and review any alleged violation called in. JC made the best case I've heard thus far for ignoring the call ins. Most are a waste of time and they take the officials away from their jobs at hand.

Isn't the job at hand of the officials to apply penalties when they are known?

I think this is the point being missed here. A rules official cannot refuse to investigate or act on a claimed infraction. If people think they should, the remedy is as I said, rip out the phones. If rules officials thought responding to callins was taking them away from their job at hand I am sure they would turn off the phones. But they don't because their duty is to mjake sure the game is played on as level a field as possible.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by jcgolfpro

Sorry, there are Rules Officials viewing the monitors as well as the ones on the course. Here at the MCI, 3-4 local professionals monitor those monitors. Regardless of what is on TV, the monitors are still displaying what is going on around the course. Although they are not physically present at each shot, they are watching...Big Brother is ALWAYS watching . Seriously though, THOSE are the folks that get pulled away from their jobs by having to chase through replays rather than watching their 3-4 monitors that are live. The colleague in question last year said there were 0 call-ins that resulted in penalties and yes, sometimes they DON'T answer their outside line phone.

"Local professionals?" You mean local professional rules officials? Or local professional players? Or something else?