Lateral Hazard rules question

[tg@osgp]

I've had two dfferent, (what I'd consider reputable), answers to this question.

We have a hole on our course that has a "ravine" (may be some water down there somewhere), down the left side of the course, about 150 yds off the tee box, and goes for about 75 yards....question is, if your tee shot "flies" into the hazard do you have to find the ball to take the normal drop and stroke penalty, or if you don't find it is it a lost ball, "stroke/distance"?

I don't think you have to find it, if you're reasonably sure it's in the hazard.

Thanks

[Body_Visions]

If there is reasonable evindence it is in there, that is all you need.

[Fourputt]

All you need is reasonable evidence that the ball is lost in the hazard, and the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. Take your 2 clublengths from that point, drop and play on with one penalty stroke added for the privilege of extracting yourself from the hazard.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by tg@osgp

I've had two dfferent, (what I'd consider reputable), answers to this question.

We have a hole on our course that has a "ravine" (may be some water down there somewhere), down the left side of the course, about 150 yds off the tee box, and goes for about 75 yards....question is, if your tee shot "flies" into the hazard do you have to find the ball to take the normal drop and stroke penalty, or if you don't find it is it a lost ball, "stroke/distance"?

I don't think you have to find it, if you're reasonably sure it's in the hazard.

Thanks

You called the ravine a hazard but how is it staked?

[Bulls9999]

Originally Posted by Body_Visions

If there is reasonable evindence it is in there, that is all you need.

So if you saw it fly in there, that's more than 'reasonable'.

[Bulls9999]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

You called the ravine a hazard but how is it staked?

Ooh...good point. I think we all presumed it was a 'hazard', but it may not be.

[Body_Visions]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

So if you saw it fly in there, that's more than 'reasonable'.

Yes.

[tg@osgp]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

You called the ravine a hazard but how is it staked?

Sorry about that....it staked as red

[JungleJ]

Moved to the right forum

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by tg@osgp

Sorry about that....it staked as red

So it is in fact a lateral water hazard.

[atticusfinch]

A water hazard is defined in the rules. If it does not meet that definition it is not a water hazard no matter how it is marked. In this case he indicated there may be water in the ravine and it may be properly marked, but the question is whether the ravine is a "water course" like a stream or ditch or such.

Many courses mark difficult areas as lateral water hazards hazards to speed up play and players can play as if it is, but the rules do not permit such markings. See dec 33-8/35.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

A water hazard is defined in the rules. If it does not meet that definition it is not a water hazard no matter how it is marked. In this case he indicated there may be water in the ravine and it may be properly marked, but the question is whether the ravine is a "water course" like a stream or ditch or such.

Many courses mark difficult areas as lateral water hazards hazards to speed up play and players can play as if it is, but the rules do not permit such markings. See dec 33-8/35.

It appears that his description of the ravine meets the Lateral Water Hazard definition:

Lateral Water Hazard
A “lateral water hazard’’ is a water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b.

That part of a water hazard to be played as a lateral water hazard should be distinctively marked. A ball is in a lateral water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the lateral water hazard.

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define a lateral water hazard must be red. When both stakes and lines are used to define lateral water hazards, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin.

Note 2: The Committee may make a Local Rule prohibiting play from an environmentally-sensitive area defined as a lateral water hazard.

Note 3: The Committee may define a lateral water hazard as a water hazard.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

A water hazard is defined in the rules. If it does not meet that definition it is not a water hazard no matter how it is marked. In this case he indicated there may be water in the ravine and it may be properly marked, but the question is whether the ravine is a "water course" like a stream or ditch or such.

Many courses mark difficult areas as lateral water hazards hazards to speed up play and players can play as if it is, but the rules do not permit such markings. See dec 33-8/35.

The definition specifically says "whether or not containing water", so a dry ravine CAN defintely be designated as a lateral water hazard even if it only has water in it once every 5 years during a hard rain. By it's very nature a ravine would have water in it during a rain storm, since it was created by the erosive action of running water.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The definition specifically says "whether or not containing water", so a dry ravine CAN defintely be designated as a lateral water hazard even if it only has water in it once every 5 years during a hard rain. By it's very nature a ravine would have water in it during a rain storm, since it was created by the erosive action of running water.

I won't disagree with you. A dry watercourse IS a water hazard.

But is a ravine a watercourse? Although some ravines were formed by erosion of running water the ravine is not a "flowing body of water" as a river creek etc. The colorado river is a watercourse and the grand canyon a ravine it created, but along the banks of the canyon are thousands of ravines that are not watercourses, they are simply carved out by erosion and may from time to time in rainy weather fill with water.

There is a course near Jacksonville Florida called Ravines and it is covered with steep-sided gullys and ravines not one of which is a watercourse. (But I suspect most of which are marked as water hazards.)

It might be a tough call in a given case but I don't think we can say a ravine is a water course simply because it may have water in it from time to time. It actually has to be a watercourse.

One online dictionary says this: 1. a stream of water, as a river or brook.
2. the bed of a stream that flows only seasonally.
3. a natural channel conveying water.
4. a channel or canal made for the conveyance of water.

[Fourputt]

The defintiion of a water hazard does also say "and anything of a similar nature", which I feel leaves the door wide open to a fairly liberal interpretation.

It seems to me, and I may have a faulty memory of it, but I think the "barancas" on the Torrey Pines South Course are designated as hazards, and they are simply ravines formed by storm runoff flowing to the ocean.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The defintiion of a water hazard does also say "and anything of a similar nature", which I feel leaves the door wide open to a fairly liberal interpretation.

It seems to me, and I may have a faulty memory of it, but I think the "barancas" on the Torrey Pines South Course are designated as hazards, and they are simply ravines formed by storm runoff flowing to the ocean.

Yes, there is room for more than the listed items, but I would be careful of a liberal interpretation. The area in question still must be a water course.

I don't know about Torry Pines either, but we should be careful making broad applications of single situations. It may be that those are water courses, or there is a local rule approved by the USGA.

[tg@osgp]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

A water hazard is defined in the rules. If it does not meet that definition it is not a water hazard no matter how it is marked. In this case he indicated there may be water in the ravine and it may be properly marked, but the question is whether the ravine is a "water course" like a stream or ditch or such.

Many courses mark difficult areas as lateral water hazards hazards to speed up play and players can play as if it is, but the rules do not permit such markings. See dec 33-8/35.

OK, so I'm not the only one that thinks the proper use of red stakes is for a "lateral WATER hazard"....I can't find any reference to a "plain" lateral hazard in the USGA/RoG.

That being said, I was at the Wachovia yesterday and saw a lot of "red" paint on the ground in areas didn't appear to be what I'd call a true water hazard.....or at least not since "the big flood" (read "Ark")....as a matter of fact it was on "high ground" not low lying area.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by tg@osgp

I can't find any reference to a "plain" lateral hazard in the USGA/RoG.

Of course, there is none. If an area is not a watercourse it cannot be designated a water hazard or a lateral water hazard. Calling it a "lateral hazard" has no meaning within the rules of golf.

[scadam]

We call a dry creek that's staked as "enviromentally sensitive".

[savgolfjunkie]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Of course, there is none. If an area is not a watercourse it cannot be designated a water hazard or a lateral water hazard. Calling it a "lateral hazard" has no meaning within the rules of golf.

So essentially, if the course puts down red stakes next to an area that THEY deem has or even potentially, has water, if you hit it in you go to the point the ball crossed the hazard line and take your proper drop? (as it is a "lateral water hazard")

I guess I am not following the debate here....If as in the question posed, there is a ravine with red stakes, its a lateral water hazard...period. I don't get what is being questioned. If it is within the marked hazard, it is played that way, whether or not the ball actually made it to the water that may or may not be at the bottom of the ravine....

Maybe I am just missing my morning coffee....

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by savgolfjunkie

So essentially, if the course puts down red stakes next to an area that THEY deem has or even potentially, has water, if you hit it in you go to the point the ball crossed the hazard line and take your proper drop? (as it is a "lateral water hazard")

I guess I am not following the debate here....If as in the question posed, there is a ravine with red stakes, its a lateral water hazard...period. I don't get what is being questioned. If it is within the marked hazard, it is played that way, whether or not the ball actually made it to the water that may or may not be at the bottom of the ravine....

Maybe I am just missing my morning coffee....

There are two things going on in the discussion. 1) what do the rules say can be marked as a water hazard, and 2) what do you do when confronted with hazard markings that are not proper.

A water hazard has to be a watercourse. A ravine may be a watercourse. That is a matter of fact to determine. But the mere fact that it is marked as a lateral water hazard, does not make it a water course. Thousands of courses mark difficult areas as lateral water hazards to speed play, they say. However that mistake is not the player's and they are entitled to play them as marked.

But the rules do not permit such markings.