Swing Aids

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I presume you mean in ONE movement here?

I don't understand the question

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It makes me think of Rule 18. Your ball is lying in the rough, you touch the grass behind the ball with your club and the ball moves,

If you continue with the stroke, it is OK and no penalty as per Rule 18-2b

BUT!!!

Originally Posted by Fourputt

but when you take the club away, the ball returns to its original position.... or at least it seems to.

This implies TWO movements so Penalties.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

If you continue with the stroke, it is OK and no penalty as per Rule 18-2b

BUT!!!



This implies TWO movements so Penalties.

But.... the rule also says if the ball returns to it's original position, there is no penalty.

Definition of Moved:

Move or Moved
A ball is deemed to have “moved’’ if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

And there is only one act. I touch the grass with my club, but I have not addressed the ball. I see the ball start to move when I touch the grass, then immediately take it away again. The ball appears to return to its original position as soon as I lift the club, and I did not touch the ball with either the club or any part of my body.

18/2 Ball Oscillates During Address

Q. In addressing the ball, a player accidentally causes the ball to oscillate, but it returns to its original position. Has the ball “moved”?

A. No.

If the ball hasn't come to rest in a different place, then it doesn't fit the Rules definition of moved.

My only question is how certain can you be in this case that it did return to the original position?

[Fileygolfer]

There are three things that can happen.

1. YOU believe that the ball finished in the same spot and call No Penalty.

2. YOU believe it did move so call it and take the penalty.

or

3. YOU believe that the ball finished in the same spot so call no penalty but you playing partner seeing the ball move calls you a "Cheat" and escorts you off to be shot at dawn.

[Fileygolfer]

OSCILLATE:- To swing back and forth with a steady uninterrupted rhythm.

The big question here is what is Oscillation and what is Movement?

I have been told that in the case of a Golf Ball, Oscillation is when the ball (being round) moves on its axis, i.e. more of a 'Rocking' movement.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

OSCILLATE:- To swing back and forth with a steady uninterrupted rhythm.

The big question here is what is Oscillation and what is Movement?

I have been told that in the case of a Golf Ball, Oscillation is when the ball (being round) moves on its axis, i.e. more of a 'Rocking' movement.

If it turns on its axis doesn't it just rotate in place? Oscillation is a back and forth action, like rocking.

Both are movement, neither is "moved" as defined in the rules. (Assuming the oscillation ends up in the place it started.)

The first smiley is turning on his axis, the second is oscillating and returhning to the starting point. Both display movement, neither is moved according to the rules.

[Fileygolfer]

So what you are saying is that if you address you ball in the middle of the fairway and it rolls say 6" before returning to its origional spot, there is No Penalty?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

So what you are saying is that if you address you ball in the middle of the fairway and it rolls say 6" before returning to its origional spot, there is No Penalty?

Why do ask a question about what is essentially impossible? No ball is going to move that far then miraculously move back again to the same spot. Can't we try to keep the discussion within the realm of possibility? The question I posed was with the ball appearing to oscillate less than a half inch, something that could easily happen with a lie in the rough.

And BTW, in my example I never said that I had addressed the ball. I was in the process of addressing it, but the ball started to move as my club started to press down the grass... I never finished grounding the club.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

So what you are saying is that if you address you ball in the middle of the fairway and it rolls say 6" before returning to its origional spot, there is No Penalty?

You're just being silly...of course not. But if it rolls 5.5 inches and retrurns to the original spot....no penalty. That's why scorecards were 6 inches long.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

And BTW, in my example I never said that I had addressed the ball. I was in the process of addressing it, but the ball started to move as my club started to press down the grass... I never finished grounding the club.

It doesn't matter if you addressed the ball or not, your actions caused the ball to move\oscillate.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

You're just being silly...of course not. But if it rolls 5.5 inches and retrurns to the original spot....no penalty. That's why scorecards were 6 inches long.

I'm NOT being silly, I am checking that you believe that a ball can move a distance to OSCILLATE. I am using a ridiculous distance to emphasise my point.

I and many others would call a penalty if our ball moved like your right hand Smily.

Anyway, this is a Swing Aid thread, how about starting a new one "To Move or not To Move that is the question?"

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I'm NOT being silly, I am checking that you believe that a ball can move a distance to OSCILLATE. I am using a ridiculous distance to emphasise my point.

I and many others would call a penalty if our ball moved like your right hand Smily.

Anyway, this is a Swing Aid thread, how about starting a new one "To Move or not To Move that is the question?"

You and many others can do as you please, I prefer to follow the rules which say:

A ball is deemed to have “moved’’ if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

Q. In addressing the ball, a player accidentally causes the ball to oscillate, but it returns to its original position. Has the ball “moved”?

A. No.

There is no limitation on how far it may oscillate.

[JPsuff]

.



Of course, the easy answer to any of this is to simply not ground your club if the lie is questionable. If my ball is in the rough, or in the pine needles or in any type of lie where grounding a club behind the ball may cause it to move, I just don't ground the club.

Plus the fact that if you don't ground your club you can never be said to have actually "addressed" the ball so even if the ball suddenly sprouts wings and flies off on its own, there's no penalty because there's no "address".

That's one little facet of "The Rules" that actually helps the golfer more often than not.



-JP

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

.



Of course, the easy answer to any of this is to simply not ground your club if the lie is questionable. If my ball is in the rough, or in the pine needles or in any type of lie where grounding a club behind the ball may cause it to move, I just don't ground the club.

Plus the fact that if you don't ground your club you can never be said to have actually "addressed" the ball so even if the ball suddenly sprouts wings and flies off on its own, there's no penalty because there's no "address".

That's one little facet of "The Rules" that actually helps the golfer more often than not.



-JP

Which is precisely what I would do in such a situation. We have lots of nasty rough on my home course, so I've gotten pretty good at hitting from such lies without grounding my club. I've had lies where I couldn't set up with the club any closer than 8 - 10 inches from the ball just to avoid any chance of moving it, or accidentally doing something that could be construed as improving my lie or swing path.

During 35 years of playing golf, I've had just about every weird lie imaginable, so I've had to learn to deal with all of them without breaking the rules.