To move or not move, that is the question?

[Fileygolfer]

This question has hi-jacked the "Swing Aids" thread so I have started this one.

To move or not to move, that is the question?

What do you guys think?

I have not checked the 2008 RofG but in the 2004 version under 'Definitions' it reads:
Move or Moved
[i]A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.[i]

Knowing how the R&A word Rules, does leave its position mean just that, so that any other place could infact also be its origional position.
Does this then mean that if a ball 'rocks' its is classed as Oscillating so no penalty, but if it leaves its position (even finishing back where it started) it is deemed to have moved and a penalty is incurred?

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

This question has hi-jacked the "Swing Aids" thread so I have started this one.

To move or not to move, that is the question?

What do you guys think?

I have not checked the 2008 RofG but in the 2004 version under 'Definitions' it reads:
Move or Moved
[i]A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.[i]

Knowing how the R&A word Rules, does leave its position mean just that, so that any other place could infact also be its origional position.
Does this then mean that if a ball 'rocks' its is classed as Oscillating so no penalty, but if it leaves its position (even finishing back where it started) it is deemed to have moved and a penalty is incurred?

This is one of those "I haven't checked the Rules but I seem to remember..." answers.

I am pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere before and it was concluded that a ball that returns to its original position is deemed to have not moved, even if it did for a time leave that position.

[JungleJ]

BTW the wording is the same in the 2008 Rules book.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by JungleJ

BTW the wording is the same in the 2008 Rules book.

Thanks for that. I downloaded the new rules but my computer will not translate it once saved. I'll wait to get my Golf Monthly.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Thanks for that. I downloaded the new rules but my computer will not translate it once saved. I'll wait to get my Golf Monthly.

If you go to the R&A website they have an online application where you can read all the Rules and jump from one to another - I have it bookmarked so I can quickly check out the answers to these queries.

[Wazmankg]

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that "any other place" would exclude it's original position.

[Darth Fader]

If it returns to its original location then it is demed not to have moved.

[Fileygolfer]

Anyone who has ever done Physics will tell you that for an object moving backwards and forwards to change direction there is a point where it is stationary.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Anyone who has ever done Physics will tell you that for an object moving backwards and forwards to change direction there is a point where it is stationary.

There is technically a stopping point as it changes direction, but the ball is never truly at rest either. At rest indicates a discernible period of time when no movement is apparent.

Since we're bring silly, there is no stopping point if it makes a loop as it reverses direction. So what's your next improbability?

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Anyone who has ever done Physics will tell you that for an object moving backwards and forwards to change direction there is a point where it is stationary.

True, and a stopped clock is right twice a day and a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while. But in the spirit of this issue, even I think such an argument is ridiculous.


And to think people rolled their eyes when I argued about armpit cloth.






-JP

[Leaguegolf]

If I kick my ball in an effort to get a better lie......and I don't like the new lie so I kick it back to the previous lie......does it count as having moved?

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

True, and a stopped clock is right twice a day and a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while. But in the spirit of this issue, even I think such an argument is ridiculous.


And to think people rolled their eyes when I argued about armpit cloth.






-JP

You try and have an educated discussion about the RofG and some people just give their verdict and if you don't agree with them, they give you grief.

The armpit cloth debate could have gone on a while, BUT!!!!!!

and now this thread.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

If I kick my ball in an effort to get a better lie......and I don't like the new lie so I kick it back to the previous lie......does it count as having moved?

I think that's OK as long as you're not wearing a weighted golf shoe.


.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

You try and have an educated discussion about the RofG and some people just give their verdict and if you don't agree with them, they give you grief.

This is an educated discussion about the rules of golf?

[Bulls9999]

I understood the ruling to mean that if it 'rocks back and forth' and ends up in the original position, that does not constitute the movement that garners a penalty.

[Bulls9999]

18/1 Ball Moves Vertically Downward

Q. A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downward. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?
A. Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.
-----------------------------------------
18/2 Ball Oscillates During Address

Q. In addressing the ball, a player accidentally causes the ball to oscillate, but it returns to its original position. Has the ball “moved”?
A. No.
----------------------------------------
18/3 Ball in Fork of Tree Moves in Relation to Ground But Not in Relation to Fork

Q. A ball rests in the fork of a branch of a tree. The player climbs the tree to play his next stroke. The branch bends under his weight. Although the ball has moved relative to the ground, it has not moved relative to the fork. Is the ball deemed to have moved?
A. The ball is deemed not to have moved since it did not move in relation to the fork of the tree in which it was lodged.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

You try and have an educated discussion about the RofG and some people just give their verdict and if you don't agree with them, they give you grief.

I keep up on the rules and keep my Decision book current and I'm usually on your side Fileygolfer but it's really hard to take this one seriously.....

Originally Posted by fileygolfer

To move or not to move, that is the question?

What do you guys think?

I have not checked the 2008 RofG but in the 2004 version under 'Definitions' it reads:
Move or Moved
[i]A ball is deemed to have "moved" if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.[i]

I'm not familiar with the differences between the USGA's Rules of Golf and the R & A's Rules of golf because I never play under R & A Rules but under the USGA Rules the ball either moves or it doesn't. Oscillating back into it's original position does not constitute movement according to the USGA. That's good enough for me and I don't need to try to dig into any hidden meanings.

I enjoy your contributions to our rules discussions and I apologize for my flippant footwedge post.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

I enjoy your contributions to our rules discussions and I apologize for my flippant footwedge post.

Thanks for that.

Over the years I have used exaggerations to make my point and still do.
Like if a ball can move off its spot and return to be classed as Oscillate so can a move of 6". Daft, Silly, Stupid, but true?


You also raise a very interesting thing. One RofG but several editions.
I know that some English words do not translate into some languages so setting out the wording for the RofG has to be very difficult. The USGA and R&A versions should be the same but may not be.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

I'm not familiar with the differences between the USGA's Rules of Golf and the R & A's Rules of golf because I never play under R & A Rules

Some words are spelled differently (honor/honour) but otherwise they are identical.

The decisions are identical also, but the USGA has some additional ones that apply in the USA only .

[Fileygolfer]

Finally got an e-mail back from a friend of mine.

His decision is:-
If a ball leaves it's position, you can not determine if it did return to that spot so a shot penalty.
Oscillation is a rocking movement.

This decision comes from a guy who will be giving decisions on the European Tour this year so clears it up for me.