What was Verplank whining about at the Mercedes ?

[Wazmankg]

He moved in to address his ball in the fairway, touched the ground behind his ball and his ball moved. He asked for a ruling but was adamant that he hadn't made the ball move and shouldn't be assessed a stroke. He admitted he grounded his club behind the ball though. I was sort of embarrassed for him. The rules official was trying to be nice, but hasn't this guy been a pro for over 20 years ? Faldo was basically murmuring "It's a stroke Scott, move it along". He wound up playing 2 balls and was told to count the one with the penalty stroke after the round. He still seemed upset about it when he was interviewed. Now I'm certainly no rules guru but even I know that's a stroke. He was complaining about the wind, the slope, blah, blah.... Now my question for our rules guys is (if your familiar with the incident) did he have any basis for argument ?

[Game Face]

I saw the incident. I'm not a rules guy, but I know he was in the wrong. He acted very childish about the whole thing.
Too bad they don't issue red cards or techical fouls for the players actions.

Spoiled adults.


What was funny though was Faldo's comment on Sabbatini's impatience. "Hey, isn't that Rory sticking his head up over the hill?"

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Game Face

I saw the incident. I'm not a rules guy, but I know he was in the wrong. He acted very childish about the whole thing.
Too bad they don't issue red cards or techical fouls for the players actions.

Yeah, he sounded like ... well me, whining about how some of the rules are unfair. Even well after the fact. I think that AF or Fourputt should have a talk with him.

[bignose]

If it was that windy or unstable of a lie, the pro should have known the loophole in that particular rule. Unless you are in a hazard, the player had not taken an official address of the ball until the club is grounded. If you don't ever ground your club, the ball can roll or move from wind or leaves or or earthquake or chipmunks or whatever and it isn't a stroke. If you do ground your club, however, then you are deemed responsible for wind or leaves or earthquakes or sloths or butterflies or orangutans or <smack> or whatever. I did not see the incident, but it sounds pretty pathetic to me.

[Fileygolfer]

I have not seen the incident but a number of things stand out.

1. Its the start of a new year & New RofG.

2. Tour Pro's try and bend the Rules to their advantage.

3. He may have been reading our "Move or not to move" thread and got caught up with its contents.

4. If the ball moved and he didn't replace it, its a TWO SHOT penalty.

[Fourputt]

I did not see the incident either, but I watched them discuss it on Golf Channel last night. Apparently Verplank's argument was that he had not addressed the ball, i.e. he had grounded the club, but he had not taken his stance. He then stepped away, and after he moved back, the ball moved. The problem is, when you have grounded your club, if the ball subsequently moves, you are usually deemed to have caused the movement. That is apparently the case with this case. Take the stroke and move on.

[Darth Fader]

Havent seen the incident but i know enough of the rules to know that it was a 'stroke'.

[Bulls9999]

Although I agree he was wrong and deserved the stroke...according to the rules, I still believe there should be interpretation by rules officials on extreme weather condition days, like that obviusly was. I seriously doubt his 'grounding of the club' caused the ball to move, but rather, the 20-25 mph winds did. If you're going to have rules officials all over the place like obviously PGA tournies do, and considering whats at stake ($$$$), I don't see why they can't include some interpretive flexibility based on conditions. That's just me and perhaps doesn't sit well with purists out there.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I did not see the incident either, but I watched them discuss it on Golf Channel last night. Apparently Verplank's argument was that he had not addressed the ball, i.e. he had grounded the club, but he had not taken his stance. He then stepped away, and after he moved back, the ball moved. The problem is, when you have grounded your club, if the ball subsequently moves, you are usually deemed to have caused the movement. That is apparently the case with this case. Take the stroke and move on.

[JPsuff]

.


This is a classic example of why a golfer should learn to hover a club instead of grounding it.

There is a par 3 on a course I play which exists on a penninsula reaching out into a bay. It's elevated and completely exposed to the wind which is almost constant most of the time. I have stood over putts on this green and had to brace myself against that wind and I have seen the ball oscillate many times. Due to the wind and the overly dried out putting surface it produces, I never address a putt on this green with the putter soled because the ball is very likely to move.

A twenty-plus-year pro should have a "hover" in his repertoire for just such a situation.


Scott, take the stroke and get on with it and then go practice a hover so it doesn't happen again.


-JP

[Texas Wedge]

Okay, so I have a question about "grounding the club". What constitutes grounding the club? On the green, for example, have you grounded your club if you put it on the ground to get your putting grip BEFORE you step up to address the ball? Or does grounding the club refer to the club touching the ground only when addressing the ball?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I seriously doubt his 'grounding of the club' caused the ball to move, but rather, the 20-25 mph winds did.

That's not the point. The rule says that once you have addressed the ball and it moves, you incur a penalty stroke and must replace the ball no matter what actually moved it.

The issue in this case is whether he had addressed the ball or not.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

That's not the point. The rule says that once you have addressed the ball and it moves, you incur a penalty stroke and must replace the ball no matter what actually moved it.

The issue in this case is whether he had addressed the ball or not.

True.

And according to the rules, (to my understanding), addressing the ball is taking your stance and grounding your club unless you're in a hazard in which case simply taking your stance constitutes addressing the ball (since the club cannot be grounded).

Those who advocate hovering the club instead of grounding it (such as Jack Nicklaus) claim that since the club is not grounded, the ball is never truly addressed and therefore any movement of the ball (such as by wind or water) does not penalize the player.

This brings up interesting question.

Since one can't ground the club in a hazard and since the rules regard address in a hazard as being accomplished by taking one's stance, if the ball moved while at address in that hazard, even though the club wasn't grounded, does that count as a penalty stroke since grounding is not a prerequisite for address in that situation?



-JP

[Bulls9999]

I did say I concur with the officials current ruling because IT IS THE RULE. But I also said I would like to see the rule modified (i.e., for future implimentation) to be flexible to account for severe conditions that make it obvious is was no fault of the player. Rules are not written in stone....they can be changed if there is a mindset to do so.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

That's not the point. The rule says that once you have addressed the ball and it moves, you incur a penalty stroke and must replace the ball no matter what actually moved it.

The issue in this case is whether he had addressed the ball or not.

[Fileygolfer]

This is a situation where a number of Rules can be brought into the equation.
Without listing the full rules.
Rule 18-2a (i) states if a player causes the ball to move. penalty of one stroke and ball replaced.
Rule 18-2b then covers a ball being moved at address.
So whether he Adressed the ball or not, the question was did his actions cause the ball to move?
The Officials obviously thought they did.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I did say I concur with the officials current ruling because IT IS THE RULE. But I also said I would like to see the rule modified (i.e., for future implimentation) to be flexible to account for severe conditions that make it obvious is was no fault of the player. Rules are not written in stone....they can be changed if there is a mindset to do so.

That flexibility is already in the rules. See dec 18-2b/4 & 11. (There is something wrong with the USGA site otherwise I would post it.)

[Wazmankg]

There was agreement that he hadn't addressed the ball because he hadn't taken his stance, but he started to by grounding his club behind the ball. The official said that by doing this he put himself in jeopardy of assuming responsibility for the ball's movement. Everyone involved was taken aback by Verplank's reaction.

[Game Face]

Scott knows better
By Steve Eubanks

Friday, Jan 4, 2008 2:53 pm EST

As adamant as Scott Verplank was in making his case for a favorable ruling on Thursday, he was wrong and he probably knew it. There are plenty of vagaries in the rules of golf, but Rule 18, "Ball at Rest Moved" is not one of them. According to the USGA, "If a player's ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player shall be deemed to have moved the ball and incur a penalty stroke."

Everybody knows this one. It's why you don't ground your putter on sloping greens when there's a breath of wind. It's why Jack Nicklaus never soled his clubs; technically, Jack never addressed the ball, so he didn't have to worry about it moving. Verplank's argument that he hadn't planted his feet, and therefore hadn't technically addressed the ball isn't as strong as if he had set his feet but failed to sole his club. Sophie Gustafson dodged a bullet with that one at the 2003 Samsung World Challenge when she appeared to put her putter down, but claimed she never soled it, so when the ball moved there was no penalty and Gustafson went on to win the tournament.

Once the club is on the ground, the player is deemed to have moved the ball if it moves. Let's say a herd of elephants storms by and the ball rolls. Too bad. You put the club down, you caused it to move. Hurricane blows your ball off the green. Same as above.

Verplank knows this rule, or at least he knew it a quarter-century ago. In 1981, he was playing with Tommy Moore of New Orleans in an AJGA event when Moore addressed his ball in the rough and a shift in the mulch caused the ball to move. A lengthy discussion ensued in which the rule was explained to everyone in the group, and a one-shot penalty was issued.

I know. I'm the guy who made the ruling. Hard to believe Verplank spent the last 25 years playing competitive golf and never had that one come up again.