Grounding your club

[Texas Wedge]

I have a question about "grounding the club". I asked this in another thread but got no response, so I'm hoping a separate thread will help.

I know this sounds elementary, but I want to make sure I can distinguish the difference.

What constitutes grounding the club? On the green, for example, have you grounded your club if you put the putter on the ground to get your putting grip BEFORE you step up to address the ball? Or does grounding the club refer to the club touching the ground only when addressing the ball?

Example: Player A is taking his practice putting stroke and then rests the club on the ground to regrip before addressing the ball. He steps up to the ball and before grounding his club behind the ball, it moves. Had he grounded the club or not?

My opinion is that the club is not grounded unless it is done so while addressing the ball. I would like someone else's opinion on this though. Someone with more rules knowledge than I have...since I am certainly no rules expert.

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by Texas Wedge

I have a question about "grounding the club". I asked this in another thread but got no response, so I'm hoping a separate thread will help.

I know this sounds elementary, but I want to make sure I can distinguish the difference.

What constitutes grounding the club? On the green, for example, have you grounded your club if you put the putter on the ground to get your putting grip BEFORE you step up to address the ball? Or does grounding the club refer to the club touching the ground only when addressing the ball?

Example: Player A is taking his practice putting stroke and then rests the club on the ground to regrip before addressing the ball. He steps up to the ball and before grounding his club behind the ball, it moves. Had he grounded the club or not?

My opinion is that the club is not grounded unless it is done so while addressing the ball. I would like someone else's opinion on this though. Someone with more rules knowledge than I have...since I am certainly no rules expert.

That is up to the player first to know whether or not he believed his action could have caused the ball to move. If one isn't sure then it probably did. If there is a dispute then it would be up to an rules official in tournement play.

You must have taken a stance but grounding the club while moving into position could possibly cause the ball to move. That's why it is better to take the stance and not ground the putter or at least don't ground it til the player is ready to start the stroke. More often than not I believe an official would rule in favor of an added penalty if the club was grounded then the ball moved. I've seen it both ways on tour.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Texas Wedge

I have a question about "grounding the club". I asked this in another thread but got no response, so I'm hoping a separate thread will help.

I know this sounds elementary, but I want to make sure I can distinguish the difference.

What constitutes grounding the club? On the green, for example, have you grounded your club if you put the putter on the ground to get your putting grip BEFORE you step up to address the ball? Or does grounding the club refer to the club touching the ground only when addressing the ball?

Example: Player A is taking his practice putting stroke and then rests the club on the ground to regrip before addressing the ball. He steps up to the ball and before grounding his club behind the ball, it moves. Had he grounded the club or not?

My opinion is that the club is not grounded unless it is done so while addressing the ball. I would like someone else's opinion on this though. Someone with more rules knowledge than I have...since I am certainly no rules expert.

In my opinion, a club is grounded when its weight is supported by the ground or when the sole of the club is placed on the ground even if the weight does not actually rest on the ground (as with players who place the club ahead of the ball when putting...Nick Price). This can occur anywhere and under any circumstance. Simply setting up a practice stroke well away from the ball will result in a grounding of the club when its weight is supported by the ground. Leaning on a club while standing, the club is grounded.

Grounding the club can occur with or without taking a stance. But when a stance is taken in conjunction with grounding, then the ball is addressed and rule 18-2b comes into play.

The player in your example has grounded his club more than once, and when the ball moves before address it does not matter if he has grounded it or not, the question is whether he caused it to move. Sometimes grounding a club can cause the ball to move.

[Darth Fader]

I have always considered the club to be grounded once you have taken up your stance and addressed the ball.

[Fileygolfer]

To address the ball a player should take his stance and ground his club. In either order is classed as Addressing the ball I believe.

The club only needs to touch the ground\grass to be classed as Grounded.

If I remember right the European Tour had a Local Rule (PGA Rules) that stated that in extreme conditions that grounding was only instrumented when you placed the club directly behind the ball (within 3"?).

I think that this is one of the cases where the RofG should be added to and a clear definition of "Grounding" be included.

[Batteaux]

From the RCGA Rule book:" A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

If I remember right the European Tour had a Local Rule (PGA Rules) that stated that in extreme conditions that grounding was only instrumented when you placed the club directly behind the ball (within 3"?).

How far back was that LR? I looked at the 2006 hard card and there is no such provision.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

How far back was that LR? I looked at the 2006 hard card and there is no such provision.

I regained my Amateur Status in 1993, 20 years after turning Pro.
So somewhere between 1973 and 1988.
Today they call them off the course, where we used to have to play on.

[Texas Wedge]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

To address the ball a player should take his stance and ground his club. In either order is classed as Addressing the ball I believe.

The club only needs to touch the ground\grass to be classed as Grounded.

If I remember right the European Tour had a Local Rule (PGA Rules) that stated that in extreme conditions that grounding was only instrumented when you placed the club directly behind the ball (within 3"?).

I think that this is one of the cases where the RofG should be added to and a clear definition of "Grounding" be included.

So from all the responses, I take it to be like this:

Your club is grounded any time you touch the ground with it (basically).
A penalty stroke is assessed if your ball moves while you are addressing the ball if you've grounded your club at any time (even before addressing the ball).

Therefore, in my original scenario, the player would be assessed a penalty stroke and replace the ball to its original position and play it from there. If that's not right...please let me know where I've strayed. Thanks for the help guys!!!

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I regained my Amateur Status in 1993, 20 years after turning Pro.
So somewhere between 1973 and 1988.
Today they call them off the course, where we used to have to play on.

So the latest in your recollection is it could have been a local rule is 1988?

Apparently those days are long gone.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

So the latest in your recollection is it could have been a local rule is 1988?

Apparently those days are long gone.

Thats right.
The last time I remember this Rule was in the 1985 Wansbeck Classic and it was for the putting green only.
Hole 560yds, nearly drove the green with a tee shot of about 500yds.
Next hole 315yds, got on front edge with great hit Driver and 3wood.
Thats how strong the wind was that day.

TODAY, as I said before, the Officials take the players off the course as soon as it appears that the wind could move a ball where we had to play through that type of weather, but the PGA did put in a Local Rule to assist us.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Texas Wedge

Example: Player A is taking his practice putting stroke and then rests the club on the ground to regrip before addressing the ball. He steps up to the ball and before grounding his club behind the ball, it moves. Had he grounded the club or not?

My opinion is that the club is not grounded unless it is done so while addressing the ball. I would like someone else's opinion on this though. Someone with more rules knowledge than I have...since I am certainly no rules expert.

Here is my answer for you.

You opinion is quite correct, but you have to take in other situations.
Can you remember Cabrerra taking a practice swing about 6ft from his ball and it moved. The Officials had to work out if this had CAUSED the ball to move or not.

[Texas Wedge]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Here is my answer for you.

You opinion is quite correct, but you have to take in other situations.
Can you remember Cabrerra taking a practice swing about 6ft from his ball and it moved. The Officials had to work out if this had CAUSED the ball to move or not.

I actually think I DO remember that incident. I don't remember the outcome, but I think I remember the situation. Personally, I think it's ridiculous to say that taking a practice swing 6 feet away from the ball could CAUSE the ball to move...but that's just my common sense at work.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Texas Wedge

So from all the responses, I take it to be like this:

Your club is grounded any time you touch the ground with it (basically).
A penalty stroke is assessed if your ball moves while you are addressing the ball if you've grounded your club at any time (even before addressing the ball).

Therefore, in my original scenario, the player would be assessed a penalty stroke and replace the ball to its original position and play it from there. If that's not right...please let me know where I've strayed. Thanks for the help guys!!!

Wedge, your conclusion is correct, but how you got there needs some rrefinement to avoid problems in the future.

There are two rules at issue. The first (18-2b) says that if the ball moves after address, the player is "deemed" to have moved it. This means even if he did not move it he is considered to have done so and still has a penalty no matter what the actual facts are.


Decision 18-2b/4 says: if the ball moves after the player has grounded his club, but before he has addressed it, he is "presumed" to have moved the ball. (Presume is not in the text of the decision, but that is what is going on.) The presumption can be overcome with "strong evidence" that something else moved the ball.

A presumption can be overcome with other evidence. "Deeming" cannot be overcome with anything.

[Texas Wedge]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Wedge, your conclusion is correct, but how you got there needs some rrefinement to avoid problems in the future.

There are two rules at issue. The first (18-2b) says that if the ball moves after address, the player is "deemed" to have moved it. This means even if he did not move it he is considered to have done so and still has a penalty no matter what the actual facts are.


Decision 18-2b/4 says: if the ball moves after the player has grounded his club, but before he has addressed it, he is "presumed" to have moved the ball. (Presume is not in the text of the decision, but that is what is going on.) The presumption can be overcome with "strong evidence" that something else moved the ball.

A presumption can be overcome with other evidence. "Deeming" cannot be overcome with anything.

Thanks. This is an actual situation that happened to me in a tournament. I took practice strokes in which I settled the club on the ground. When I moved up to the ball (never touching it to the ground behind the ball), it rolled back about 2 or 3 feet due to the super fast greens and the 20+ mph wind. I played the ball from both places because I was not sure of the ruling. We called the clubhouse for a ruling and when we explained the situation they asked if I had grounded the club. I thought that grounding the club was only possible while addressing the ball, so I said no. Technically, it sounds like I did ground the club, though. It didn't change my score on the hole, though, as I made the putt from the original location (plus penalty) and 2 putted from the further distance (no penalty). But the grounding of the club thing still had me scratching my head.

[Fourputt]

AF is correct in that usually, whether you have officially addressed the ball or not, if you ground your club anywhere near the ball and it subsequently moves, you will be deemed to have caused the movement unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. This isn't a legal issue where you are innocent until proven guilty... quite the opposite, if you are under suspicion at all, you are guilty until proven innocent.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

AF is correct in that usually, whether you have officially addressed the ball or not, if you ground your club anywhere near the ball and it subsequently moves, you will be deemed to have caused the movement unless there is clear evidence to the contrary. This isn't a legal issue where you are innocent until proven guilty... quite the opposite, if you are under suspicion at all, you are guilty until proven innocent.

Actually, legally speaking, the player is presumed to have done the deed, unless the presumption can be overcome with other evidence. Guilt and innocence are harsh sounding things.