Another strange ruling?

[Fileygolfer]

I have just watched an International Junior Team Event on Sky and the winning team only won because their final opponents have two players DQ'd for signing for wrong scores.

My thoughts are.

Why not DQ the "Marker" too because he put it down wrong, thou he may have been given wrong information.

Why not DQ Markers if THEY are at fault for an incorrect Scorecard.

I know it is down to the player to sign for a correct card but why only DQ them, why not the Marker too.

Any feelings among you?

[Texas Wedge]

If the score on a hole was recorded wrong by the marker, then they should be the one DQ'd.
Or if the marker added the score wrong and the player didn't catch it, they should both be DQ'd.
If the player gave the marker a wrong score for his hole, then only the player should be DQ'd.

At least that's MY opinion on the subject.

[JPsuff]

.



I hate to agree with the USGA on things like this but ultimately the accuracy of a player's score is the responsibility of the player. It's like running a business. If one of my guys damages something at someone's house - even if I wasn't on the job when it happened - I'm still responsible for it because I own the company.

A player should keep track of his own scores, compare notes afterwards and don't sign anything until all are in agreement.


When you point a finger at someone, there are three other fingers pointing right back at you.




-JP

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I have just watched an International Junior Team Event on Sky and the winning team only won because their final opponents have two players DQ'd for signing for wrong scores.

My thoughts are.

Why not DQ the "Marker" too because he put it down wrong, thou he may have been given wrong information.

Why not DQ Markers if THEY are at fault for an incorrect Scorecard.

I know it is down to the player to sign for a correct card but why only DQ them, why not the Marker too.

Any feelings among you?

The answer is simple. The rules say the player is responsible for the score.

DQ the marker? Not practical. What if his card is correct and he wins the tournament even without the DQ of the other player? How do you justify that?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I know it is down to the player to sign for a correct card but why only DQ them, why not the Marker too.

Have you ever sat across the scoring table from an experienced player and his caddie as they review the score? I have.

They review each hole stroke by stroke several times before signing the card. If that is too much to ask of players who are in important tournaments or events, then they deserve what they get, no matter how careless the marker is.

And it is no excuse for a marker to claim that he wrote down what the player told him he made on a hole. The whole idea behind the system is that the marker is supposed to observe the player and write down the score he observes, not what the player says.

[Bulls9999]

I've seen this happen in several junior events, twice with the winner and once for the winner of their Tournament of Champions. My son was called over just 15 min before the winning group came in and was also told 'he had a mistake on his scorecard'....evidently, it was the 'good kind' of mistake....he just had the total wrong (still careless). The rules state that you have to only have the correct scores for the individual holes....the player is not responsible to total the scores or, if he put 479 down for the total, insted of 79, it still will not be wrong. However, a wrong score for an individual hole....if marked higher than what it was supposed to be, you keep the higher score....if mistakenly written lower that what is supposed to be, you are DQ'd. (I guess in the latter case, it is considered 'cheating' whereas in the former case, you are excused for carelessness by being given the higher score than what you whould have received if not careless).

After 15 min, the final group came in, the prevailing youngster was listed on the board as "1st Place", given the 4-foot high trophy and was all smiles.....until, the scorer's table said there's a discrepency between what they totalled and what was listed on the final score.....after finding out that one hole was incorrectly written lower than what the boy got (he still would have won), he was DQ'd and the fellow who was the marker ended up winning the tournament....that's the part I don't like.

Hmm...AF, Bradenton?... home of the David Leadbetter Academy?

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Have you ever sat across the scoring table from an experienced player and his caddie as they review the score? I have.

They review each hole stroke by stroke several times before signing the card. If that is too much to ask of players who are in important tournaments or events, then they deserve what they get, no matter how careless the marker is.

And it is no excuse for a marker to claim that he wrote down what the player told him he made on a hole. The whole idea behind the system is that the marker is supposed to observe the player and write down the score he observes, not what the player says.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I've seen this happen in several junior events, twice with the winner and once for the winner of their Tournament of Champions. My son was called over just 15 min before the winning group came in and was also told 'he had a mistake on his scorecard'....evidently, it was the 'good kind' of mistake....he just had the total wrong (still careless). The rules state that you have to only have the correct scores for the individual holes....the player is not responsible to total the scores or, if he put 479 down for the total, insted of 79, it still will not be wrong. However, a wrong score for an individual hole....if marked higher than what it was supposed to be, you keep the higher score....if mistakenly written lower that what is supposed to be, you are DQ'd. (I guess in the latter case, it is considered 'cheating' whereas in the former case, you are excused for carelessness by being given the higher score than what you whould have received if not careless).

After 15 min, the final group came in, the prevailing youngster was listed on the board as "1st Place", given the 4-foot high trophy and was all smiles.....until, the scorer's table said there's a discrepency between what they totalled and what was listed on the final score.....after finding out that one hole was incorrectly written lower than what the boy got (he still would have won), he was DQ'd and the fellow who was the marker ended up winning the tournament....that's the part I don't like.

Hmm...AF, Bradenton?... home of the David Leadbetter Academy?

You do not like it or it was wrong?

[Bulls9999]

OH, I don't like the fact the the in the last round of a multi-round tournament, in the group in contention, the marker is often also in contention and his 'mistake' costs someone a tournament (yes, by their own carelessness too) but he could be the benificiary of the DQ and end up winning....causes many to wonder if it was done purposely with perhaps that intent. I would say suggest ammending this rule to give both people, player and marker a 2-stroke penalty. But that's not what the current rules offer, that could only be changed for the future.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

You do not like it or it was wrong?

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Have you ever sat across the scoring table from an experienced player and his caddie as they review the score? I have.

No too often, maybe a couple of hundered times, but I have sat there before entering my score over 1000 times.

Mark Roe springs to mind, in the Open, and after all these guys were JUNIORS.

[Fileygolfer]

AND:- At the end of the day who says that an entered score was lower than what was taken. How often is it The Marker?

One of my friends once was drawn with a certain German Pro (Masters Champ) and as they shook hands walking off the 18th he was asked "Now what did you get on the 1st?".
His card had not been filled in all the way round.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

.... and after all these guys were JUNIORS.

What better time to learn how to do it correctly? He probably won't make that mistake again.

[Fileygolfer]

And we all learned how to do it correctly by being DQ'd in a European Final Event at 14yrs old.

I don't know what the mistake was because they didn't say but WHO brought the mistake to the scorers attention.

If a "Marker" puts the scores for two holes the wrong way round (4 - 3 instead of 3 - 4) and signs the card before handing it to the "Player" who totals it, thinks its correct, signs it and posts it. The "Marker" then remembers what he did and tells the Recorder and the "Player" is DQ'd.
As an experienced player I always check each holes score before signing. But a youngster in a Large Finals Event should be helped by the Recorder.

I will always but a large part of the blame for Mark Roes DQ in the Open on the Recorder.
If the card was wrong and a DQ in the offering why did he say "Good round Mr Roe" when it had Jasper Parnaviks name on the card???????

Golf should be won by the player who plays the best and scores the best and not only the ones that have "A Level" Maths and know the RofG inside out.

[Bulls9999]

Filey, yes, in your example (transposed scores for two holes, added up, comes up the same as the total....no one would notice except perhaps the player or the marker), it is not likely to be found out by the officials at the scorers table unless brought to their attention by the player or the marker. However, in some tournaments, I've noticed they post all the individual hole scores for the players on a big bulletin board, and then while they are are waiting for everyone to finish, they have time to glance at the board, where it may come to mind that there's a mistake. But where they don't post individual scores on such a board, it is out of mind by both marker and player after they hand the cards in.

In the examples I gave (real events with juniors), it was a mistake written by the marker on a hole, then asking the player what he got for a total and writing that down without adding, or some such. The player likely gave a cursory glance over, signed and submitted it. The scorers then added up the individual holes and noticed that his/her total doesn't match the totals written....now they have to find out where the error is and thats when they call the marker and the player back in, to find out if the error is with the total or with one of the individual hole scores. At least, from what I gather in the current AJGA juniors, the entire group sits at a table with the score official who seems to be asking them to check over everything before signing, etc, as it seems to take them 5-10 min at that table for whatever reason. As opposed to the type of junior tournaments I've seen where they simply provide a table for the juniors to sit at and tally their score on their own before handing them in and then the officials look at the scores vs totals afterwards...perhaps this is where I've seen most of these types of mistakes.

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

And we all learned how to do it correctly by being DQ'd in a European Final Event at 14yrs old.

I don't know what the mistake was because they didn't say but WHO brought the mistake to the scorers attention.

If a "Marker" puts the scores for two holes the wrong way round (4 - 3 instead of 3 - 4) and signs the card before handing it to the "Player" who totals it, thinks its correct, signs it and posts it. The "Marker" then remembers what he did and tells the Recorder and the "Player" is DQ'd.
As an experienced player I always check each holes score before signing. But a youngster in a Large Finals Event should be helped by the Recorder.

I will always but a large part of the blame for Mark Roes DQ in the Open on the Recorder.
If the card was wrong and a DQ in the offering why did he say "Good round Mr Roe" when it had Jasper Parnaviks name on the card???????

Golf should be won by the player who plays the best and scores the best and not only the ones that have "A Level" Maths and know the RofG inside out.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Golf should be won by the player who plays the best and scores the best and not only the ones that have "A Level" Maths and know the RofG inside out.

"A level math?" If you can't count to single digit numbers you shouldn't be playing the game competitively. I see your point about markers making mistakes but the rules say that the player is ultimately responsible for his own scorecard. How hard is it to record the number of strokes you take on a specific hole in the corresponding box on a scorecard? The rules even excuse any errors in addition a player may make so any 2nd grader should be able to record an error free scorecard. Mistakes are made by carelessness and lack of attention. I've never signed a scorecard with someone else's name on it. Have you?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

And we all learned how to do it correctly by being DQ'd in a European Final Event at 14yrs old.

I don't know what the mistake was because they didn't say but WHO brought the mistake to the scorers attention.

If a "Marker" puts the scores for two holes the wrong way round (4 - 3 instead of 3 - 4) and signs the card before handing it to the "Player" who totals it, thinks its correct, signs it and posts it. The "Marker" then remembers what he did and tells the Recorder and the "Player" is DQ'd.
As an experienced player I always check each holes score before signing. But a youngster in a Large Finals Event should be helped by the Recorder.

I will always but a large part of the blame for Mark Roes DQ in the Open on the Recorder.
If the card was wrong and a DQ in the offering why did he say "Good round Mr Roe" when it had Jasper Parnaviks name on the card???????

Golf should be won by the player who plays the best and scores the best and not only the ones that have "A Level" Maths and know the RofG inside out.

Filey... I really can't dredge up much sympathy for this. I never play a tournament at higher than just interclub matches around town here, but I still ALWAYS keep a card with my own score on it. Then I compare cards at the end, and discuss any errors with my marker. If we can't resolve it, then it goes to the committee. I have had to literally give a 3 hole, shot by shot description of my play to convince my marker that I was right and he was wrong.... and once he proved to me that I was wrong. The point being that I take the responsibility for returning the correct score very seriously, even though I'm just playing for peanuts. If I was playing in a REAL tournament, you can bet that I would be even more meticulous about it.

Every time this topic comes up, it's because someone feels that he, or somebody close to him, has been wronged by the rules. But I've never seen a pro blame anyone but himself for making such a blunder. Age should have nothing to do with it. I have a friend whose grandson is 4. He will competing this season with 7 and 8 year olds (the youngest organized junior tournament level available), and he is required to attend a class on the Rules and Etiquette before the start of the season... that's 10 years younger than your young player. He actually learned to count by counting strokes on the golf course before he was 3.

I still say, if that's what it takes to learn the lesson, then so be it.

[Bulls9999]

The 'rules are the rules', but rules can be changed. In my opinion, I would rather see something to the effect of penalizing a player (and the marker) a few strokes for incorrect score reporting rather than DQ. IMO, the mistake has nothing to do with golf performance and should not be that penal as a DQ.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Filey... I really can't dredge up much sympathy for this. I never play a tournament at higher than just interclub matches around town here, but I still ALWAYS keep a card with my own score on it. Then I compare cards at the end, and discuss any errors with my marker. If we can't resolve it, then it goes to the committee. I have had to literally give a 3 hole, shot by shot description of my play to convince my marker that I was right and he was wrong.... and once he proved to me that I was wrong. The point being that I take the responsibility for returning the correct score very seriously, even though I'm just playing for peanuts. If I was playing in a REAL tournament, you can bet that I would be even more meticulous about it.

Every time this topic comes up, it's because someone feels that he, or somebody close to him, has been wronged by the rules. But I've never seen a pro blame anyone but himself for making such a blunder. Age should have nothing to do with it. I have a friend whose grandson is 4. He will competing this season with 7 and 8 year olds (the youngest organized junior tournament level available), and he is required to attend a class on the Rules and Etiquette before the start of the season... that's 10 years younger than your young player. He actually learned to count by counting strokes on the golf course before he was 3.

I still say, if that's what it takes to learn the lesson, then so be it.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

If the card was wrong and a DQ in the offering why did he say "Good round Mr Roe" when it had Jasper Parnaviks name on the card???????

The proper question is why did Roe sign the card with Parneviks name on it?

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

The proper question is why did Roe sign the card with Parneviks name on it?

If you saw the Official Open Championship scorecard you would see straight away how this mistake was made.
The name is placed in such a position that any Local Rules\Pin Placements stapled to it, covers the name that in the first place is usually fainter than the rest of the card.

Mark agreed that he was stupid to forget to swop cards but a DQ for not having broken any of the RofG. He took it very well.