Provisional Ball & going forward?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by coralpro

If one remembers the Big Break US vs Europe I believe it was Don Donatello that hit the shot that went into the edge of the gorse bushes and said he would hit a provisional and the provisional was a fantastic shot in a great place and while everybody started searching he saw what the lie area might be like and decided to play the provisional as his choice but some others on the Euro side found the ball up under a bush with his initials on it. He got mad and said he already declared it lost and they should have quit looking. Ruling was his ball was found within a part of the course not in a water hazard and it then became the ball in play and the provisional had to be picked up. He fumed for days afterwards.

Good ole don, his emotions prevent him from succeeding...if he is the tall darkheaded guy who has been on that show from the beginning...he is an emotional wreck.

And he does not know the rules apparently.

[Bulls9999]

No, I meant if the player (say Phil, using his example), noticed that the ball is probably well deep in the brush and he decided that since his provisional ball is currently in the fairway, that he will play that....and that he should be able to 'call off the search' to prevent someone else who would want to try to find the ball and require him to hit another shot into the fairway and possibly screw up, and prevent that person from looking for the ball....whether or not to continue to search for it should be the decision of the player involved, imo.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

If what you mean is the search will be negated if the player "calls it off" it will not work to do what you want. SImply put, if the original is found within five minutes of beginning the search, the original ball is in play. Nothing the player does can change that (unless he plays the provisional from a point beyond where the original is likely to be...that act takes makes provisional the ball in play.)

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

No, I meant if the player (say Phil, using his example), noticed that the ball is probably well deep in the brush and he decided that since his provisional ball is currently in the fairway, that he will play that....and that he should be able to 'call off the search' to prevent someone else who would want to try to find the ball and require him to hit another shot into the fairway and possibly screw up, and prevent that person from looking for the ball....whether or not to continue to search for it should be the decision of the player involved, imo.

That is what I am saying,, no matter how forceful the player is in trying to call off the search,, there is nothing he can do if someone ignores or does not hear his instructions. If the ball is found, tough luck for his plan.

The important fact as far as the rules are concerned is whether the original is found within five mins of beginning the search...the fact that the player did not want a search is irrelvant. He must play the original ball...that is the objective of the game, unless he is excused under the rules.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

No, I meant if the player (say Phil, using his example), noticed that the ball is probably well deep in the brush and he decided that since his provisional ball is currently in the fairway, that he will play that....and that he should be able to 'call off the search' to prevent someone else who would want to try to find the ball and require him to hit another shot into the fairway and possibly screw up, and prevent that person from looking for the ball....whether or not to continue to search for it should be the decision of the player involved, imo.

You cannot "call off" a search. If you don't like the possible outcome, then you better get up there quick and hit that ball in the fairway, because that is the only way you can control the situation.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

because that is the only way you can control the situation.

And even that may not save you if the location of the provisional is not further than the locations of the original.

[Bulls9999]

I didn't say you 'could call off a search' (i.e., as the rules currently stand...I know that). I said, imo, that's what the rules should be changed to by ammendment.

Bulls9999
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Re: Provisional Ball & going forward?
In that case, I think the player should have the authority (ammend the rules) to 'call off a search', because it lends itself for someone else who may have something against the player to keep on searching (like the caddy of Phil's competitor, lol, or a spectator who doesn't like the player).

Quote:
Originally Posted by atticusfinch
You do not have to search, but if it is found in five mins the orignal is the ball in play.

If you look over the ledge and say "it's lost" but then someone finds it within five mins, the original is the ball in play.

Phil knew the ramifications of finding it, that is why he told everyone to not search.


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-Bulls9999

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You cannot "call off" a search. If you don't like the possible outcome, then you better get up there quick and hit that ball in the fairway, because that is the only way you can control the situation.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I didn't say you 'could call off a search' (i.e., as the rules currently stand...I know that). I said, imo, that's what the rules should be changed to by ammendment.

Bulls9999
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Posts: 454


Re: Provisional Ball & going forward?
In that case, I think the player should have the authority (ammend the rules) to 'call off a search', because it lends itself for someone else who may have something against the player to keep on searching (like the caddy of Phil's competitor, lol, or a spectator who doesn't like the player).

Quote:
Originally Posted by atticusfinch
You do not have to search, but if it is found in five mins the orignal is the ball in play.

If you look over the ledge and say "it's lost" but then someone finds it within five mins, the original is the ball in play.

Phil knew the ramifications of finding it, that is why he told everyone to not search.


__________________
Regards,
-Bulls9999

Your opinion is noted. contact the USGA to change the rules. We can only talk about the way they are in here.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I didn't say you 'could call off a search' (i.e., as the rules currently stand...I know that). I said, imo, that's what the rules should be changed to by ammendment.

Bulls9999
Senior Member
Tour Card
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 454


Re: Provisional Ball & going forward?
In that case, I think the player should have the authority (ammend the rules) to 'call off a search', because it lends itself for someone else who may have something against the player to keep on searching (like the caddy of Phil's competitor, lol, or a spectator who doesn't like the player).



__________________
Regards,
-Bulls9999

This is still consistent with the 2nd fundamental principle of golf, that you play your ball as it lies. The rules will always give preference to playing the original ball if it is found. That is why the rule is written as it is. If the original ball is found in bounds before another ball becomes the ball in play under a Rule, regardless of who finds it, then it is still the ball in play... any other ball must be abandoned. This principle of playing the same ball from tee to hole is so basic to the game of golf that it must be this way. For this reason, you won't see any amendment to this provision.

[Bulls9999]

OK, OK, so you don't mind that someone else can be trying to find your ball to force you to abandon the provisional sitting in the fairway and require you to hit another one from the tee box (if they find the original, even if it's against the players wishes)....fine.

I guess the flip side of the Phil Mickelson example is.....if your original ball went into the jungle brush and you hit a provisional that follows likewise, then it behooves you to find your original ball to discount the 2nd bad shot? .... you then get a 'free try' for a 2nd provisional since the first one that went into the brush didn't count because you found your original? Does this work out the way I just layed out?

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

And even that may not save you if the location of the provisional is not further than the locations of the original.

If a person somehow was to make a stroke on the provisional before the ball was found then he would be permitted to do so. Wouldn't he? It seems the rules gear towards the understanding that a person would attempt to find the ball and see if it were not lost but it does bring in the argument that some have posted in the situation like Phil or Don where they wanted to play the provisional but someone found the ball before they could make a stroke on the provisional. I think making a choice is not what the intent of the rules had in mind.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by coralpro

If a person somehow was to make a stroke on the provisional before the ball was found then he would be permitted to do so. Wouldn't he?

Yes but the original ball is still in play until he "makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place..."

Merely playing the provisional is not enough to make it the ball in play. You must play it at or beyond the spot where the original is likely to be. If he plays the provisional from a spot before where the original is likely to be, and then the original is found within five minutes, the original is the ball in play.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

OK, OK, so you don't mind that someone else can be trying to find your ball to force you to abandon the provisional sitting in the fairway and require you to hit another one from the tee box (if they find the original, even if it's against the players wishes)....fine.

I guess the flip side of the Phil Mickelson example is.....if your original ball went into the jungle brush and you hit a provisional that follows likewise, then it behooves you to find your original ball to discount the 2nd bad shot? .... you then get a 'free try' for a 2nd provisional since the first one that went into the brush didn't count because you found your original? Does this work out the way I just layed out?

Yes, or you could play a second provisional based on the first provisional, and that could continue indefinitly depending on circumstances. You could have a half dozen provisionals in the same episode. scoring that would be a nightmare.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Yes, or you could play a second provisional based on the first provisional, and that could continue indefinitly depending on circumstances. You could have a half dozen provisionals in the same episode. scoring that would be a nightmare.

Indeed. Methinks that a swift return to the bar might be in order at that point.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Yes, or you could play a second provisional based on the first provisional, and that could continue indefinitly depending on circumstances. You could have a half dozen provisionals in the same episode. scoring that would be a nightmare.

Not to mention that just identifying all those balls and keeping track of which one was hit in what order.... Nightmarish scenario...

[Bulls9999]

While we're talking about provisional balls, wasn't there an episode with John Daly (I think) a couple of years ago where he hit a ball (maybe trying to reach a par4 green with his drive) that he thought went into the water on the left , then he hit a provisional from the tee, but....I'm sketchy here....but because his first ball was neither out of bounds or in the hazard had to play his provisional? (i.e., hitting 4 instead of 2 for his next shot?)....is that putting a 2nd ball in play when your 1st is neither lost or in a hazard?

I don't think that makes sense....you play a provisional because you think it might be lost....if you find the original, shouldn't you be able to play the original? Perhaps there were some circumstances in that example where John was forced to play his provisional? Maybe he made a stroke at the provisional, then they found the original not in the hazard? Forgot the details of that episode.

--------------------------------------------------------
27-2c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned:
</B>
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

If he plays the provisional from a spot before where the original is likely to be, and then the original is found within five minutes, the original is the ball in play.

Thanks, that is the part I never really could understand. I thought the rules stated once the provisional was hit it became the ball in play. I knew there had to be someway that the original position of the unknown (may be lost) ball not in a water hazard came into account.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

While we're talking about provisional balls, wasn't there an episode with John Daly (I think) a couple of years ago where he hit a ball (maybe trying to reach a par4 green with his drive) that he thought went into the water on the left , then he hit a provisional from the tee, but....I'm sketchy here....but because his first ball was neither out of bounds or in the hazard had to play his provisional? (i.e., hitting 4 instead of 2 for his next shot?)....is that putting a 2nd ball in play when your 1st is neither lost or in a hazard?

I don't think that makes sense....you play a provisional because you think it might be lost....if you find the original, shouldn't you be able to play the original? Perhaps there were some circumstances in that example where John was forced to play his provisional? Maybe he made a stroke at the provisional, then they found the original not in the hazard? Forgot the details of that episode.

If Daly thought the ball is in a water hazard and played another ball, it is the ball in play. it is not a provisional. Even if you announce it properly.

A provisional is only allowed if the ball might be OB or lost outside a water hazard.

If a provisional is played under those circumstances and the original is later found, it must be played, even if it is in a water hazard.

[petermo]

The definitions say a ball is deemed lost if :

a. it is not found or identified as his by the player within 5 minutes after the players side or his or their caddies have begun their search for it; or
b. the player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or
c. the player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from a place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

Any outsider who says "this is your ball' cannot force the player to identify it - he and his caddie are the only people allowed to search for it and if they decide to abandon it by not searching for it or identifying it that's their prerogative.