Provisional Ball & going forward?

[Fileygolfer]

Rule 27-2 states that a Provisional ball must be played before you go forward to search for the origional.

What happens if you all leave your bags and walk back to the Teeing ground and the need to have a Provisional Ball put in play arises, but no one has got a second ball with them. Does going to your bag to get another ball consitute going forward?

[Ty_Webb]

I would think not, so long as you stated your intention to play the provisional before you went up to your bag. I think if you walked up to your bag, then said, "you know what, I'm gonna go play a provisional" you would be on dodgy ground.

[GolfSavage]

That's why I always leave my bag (and/or cart) BEHIND the tee box, so I have to go backwards, not forward!

[Fourputt]

I understand what Filey is getting at here. My course has a pair of holes where it is reasonable to leave your bag in the rough between the holes (behind a tree so I don't risk hitting it) and walk to the 15th green with just your putter, wedge, and Driver (for the 16th tee). It saves carrying the bag about 400 yards (200 each way). In such a case, I would definitely state my intention to play a provisional ball before going to my bag. I can't see that this would be considered a violation, as you have clearly stated that you are NOT going forward to search.

[HackBlack]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Rule 27-2 states that a Provisional ball must be played before you go forward to search for the origional.

What happens if you all leave your bags and walk back to the Teeing ground and the need to have a Provisional Ball put in play arises, but no one has got a second ball with them. Does going to your bag to get another ball consitute going forward?

It's not "going forward", it's "going forward to search for the origional".

Going to your bag, regardless of where it is, does not constitute searching for the original...unless you hit a drive that might be lost/ob near where your bag is located.

Walking to your bag AND THEN stating your intentions to hit a provisional would not violate 27-2 because the 5 minute search does not begin until you get to where you and your competitors think the ball might be located.

[90civicracer]

Did this book happen to be 'Tales from Q-School'? I read that exact story in there and felt his pain.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by 90civicracer

Did this book happen to be 'Tales from Q-School'? I read that exact story in there and felt his pain.

Probably.

I read the story in a Golf Digest rag a while back. They were most likely excerpting stories from the book, I guess.


I think I'll get the book.




-JP

[Ty_Webb]

The penalty would be if he hit the original ball, not the provisional (or not provisional as the case may be).

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I understand what Filey is getting at here. My course has a pair of holes where it is reasonable to leave your bag in the rough between the holes (behind a tree so I don't risk hitting it) and walk to the 15th green with just your putter, wedge, and Driver (for the 16th tee). It saves carrying the bag about 400 yards (200 each way). In such a case, I would definitely state my intention to play a provisional ball before going to my bag. I can't see that this would be considered a violation, as you have clearly stated that you are NOT going forward to search.

But would there not be a time constraint issue from one having to go say 200 yds and back again to retrieve a second ball then retee? Not quite a quarter mile but 5 minutes would be pushing it just because of someone either being lazy or ill-prepared for a what-if. Not sure how that would be treated in competition but I'm sure it would suffice to say it would be penalized as slow play. I always try and make sure I have two additional balls with me in case of provisionals needed. Again I very seldom walk but there are courses where even a walk from cart to tee is not a stones throw.

As far as the going forward I don't think the rule's intent is to measure yds or meters but to expediate play. Leaving a bag halfway to the hole for convenience isn't what the rules intent includes. I think this would be drawing a fine line as to Equity.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

The penalty would be if he hit the original ball, not the provisional (or not provisional as the case may be).

No. He played the provisional ball and took his one-stroke "lost ball" penalty and played on.


But that's not the point anyway. The point is that, essentially, this poor slob got DQ'd because the cheese-eater that dimed him to the rules guy claimed that he didn't "announce" that he was hitting a provisional ball, which I personally think is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.



-JP

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

No. He played the provisional ball and took his one-stroke "lost ball" penalty and played on.


But that's not the point anyway. The point is that, essentially, this poor slob got DQ'd because the cheese-eater that dimed him to the rules guy claimed that he didn't "announce" that he was hitting a provisional ball, which I personally think is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.



-JP

So what's the two stroke penalty for? Sorry for dissecting, but if he played the wrong ball and completed the hole out and teed off the next, then it's DQ anyway, regardless of whether he handed his card in already. If he played his second ball, then there's just the stroke and distance penalty and nothing else, since his second ball was the one in play if he didn't say provisional.

The not saying provisional thing happens alarmingly frequently. A Scottish pro (who I'll not name since I'm not 100% sure it was him) called someone out for doing it in the Dunhill Links at St Andrews, but the problem comes if you don't say provisional and then find your original ball. This instance was particularly harsh because the person in question was Korean and didn't speak a word of English, so didn't even know what the word provisional meant.

That said, I think the rule is a good one. Otherwise, it leaves you the choice of whether to play the original if you find it, which is not right. If you hit a ball in the woods and say provisional, then find your original ball you have to play it and your provisional ball ceases to mean anything at all. If you don't say provisional, then you can't play your original ball. This is the way things should be. Otherwise, you can not say provisional, then either play your original or say that you had no intention of playing the original and play the provisional. The ridiculous rule IMO is that they couldn't adjust his score, but rather had to disqualify him.

I'm not excusing the guy that ratted him out, but if the pro in question is at Q-school, he should really know the rules well enough to know that he should say provisional. The guy that ratted on him should have told him on the hole in question if he knew the guy played the wrong ball, but he does have a responsibility to the rest of the field to say something.

By the way, I'm only saying this because I'm genuinely curious about the situation and how it came about. I'm not just arguing for arguing's sake.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

So what's the two stroke penalty for? Sorry for dissecting, but if he played the wrong ball and completed the hole out and teed off the next, then it's DQ anyway, regardless of whether he handed his card in already. If he played his second ball, then there's just the stroke and distance penalty and nothing else, since his second ball was the one in play if he didn't say provisional.

The not saying provisional thing happens alarmingly frequently. A Scottish pro (who I'll not name since I'm not 100% sure it was him) called someone out for doing it in the Dunhill Links at St Andrews, but the problem comes if you don't say provisional and then find your original ball. This instance was particularly harsh because the person in question was Korean and didn't speak a word of English, so didn't even know what the word provisional meant.

That said, I think the rule is a good one. Otherwise, it leaves you the choice of whether to play the original if you find it, which is not right. If you hit a ball in the woods and say provisional, then find your original ball you have to play it and your provisional ball ceases to mean anything at all. If you don't say provisional, then you can't play your original ball. This is the way things should be. Otherwise, you can not say provisional, then either play your original or say that you had no intention of playing the original and play the provisional. The ridiculous rule IMO is that they couldn't adjust his score, but rather had to disqualify him.

I'm not excusing the guy that ratted him out, but if the pro in question is at Q-school, he should really know the rules well enough to know that he should say provisional. The guy that ratted on him should have told him on the hole in question if he knew the guy played the wrong ball, but he does have a responsibility to the rest of the field to say something.

By the way, I'm only saying this because I'm genuinely curious about the situation and how it came about. I'm not just arguing for arguing's sake.

Well, I'm a little cloudy on the rule itself, but I understand what you're saying and maybe that's what actually happened. I'm recalling this from memory as I read it about a year ago.

As far as the whole "announcement" thing goes, I suppose that in a "crossing "T's" and "Dotting "I's" sense it may have some merit. But since there's no other reason on earth to hit a second ball other than because you think the first one is either lost or OB, the whole idea of "announcing" it seems overly picky.

As far as which ball you play and what penalties (if any) are involved, that's a different story and I agree with you about the propriety of playing your first or second ball and it should matter which one you play. It's just the whole "Mother may I" aspect that seems silly.




-JP

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Well, I'm a little cloudy on the rule itself, but I understand what you're saying and maybe that's what actually happened. I'm recalling this from memory as I read it about a year ago.

As far as the whole "announcement" thing goes, I suppose that in a "crossing "T's" and "Dotting "I's" sense it may have some merit. But since there's no other reason on earth to hit a second ball other than because you think the first one is either lost or OB, the whole idea of "announcing" it seems overly picky.

As far as which ball you play and what penalties (if any) are involved, that's a different story and I agree with you about the propriety of playing your first or second ball and it should matter which one you play. It's just the whole "Mother may I" aspect that seems silly.




-JP

The way I understand the rule is that by announcing a provisional is going to be hit is an in case of out of bounds or lost but not in a water hazard allows a choice of play to either ball. Whichever ball is has the next stroke taken becomes the ball in play provided the first ball is not found or is found to be in play. Hitting without announcing provisional for an additional ball is placing that ball as the ball in play and a stoke and distance is acknowledged by doing so. I still would also like to know where the two stroke penalty came from? There had to be more to the story as well. Perhaps he was penalized for moving the ball when it was in play and then placed it back down and played out the hole. Just a guess.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

As far as the whole "announcement" thing goes, I suppose that in a "crossing "T's" and "Dotting "I's" sense it may have some merit. But since there's no other reason on earth to hit a second ball other than because you think the first one is either lost or OB, the whole idea of "announcing" it seems overly picky.

-JP

Crossing "T's" and dotting "I's" is definitely what this is all about, and it is quite pertinent. If I hit a ball into a wooded area where there is only a dim chance of finding it to be playable, I may just in disgust deem it unplayable without ever looking for it, and play a substituted ball from the same place. I can't now change my mind when I get to the location and see that, low and behold, my ball hit a tree and bounced out almost to the fairway. I can't change my mind and decide that the ball I played was a provisional... that decision had to be made before I had such knowledge. If I don't say anything, then the rules assume that I have declared the original to be unplayable. The second ball is in play under penalty of stroke and distance, regardless of the fate of the original ball.

Under the the rules, there has to be some way to define what that second ball is when it is played, so it is defined automatically as a penalty substitution unless you inform your opponent or fellow competitor otherwise (a provisional ball).

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by coralpro

The way I understand the rule is that by announcing a provisional is going to be hit is an in case of out of bounds or lost but not in a water hazard allows a choice of play to either ball. Whichever ball is has the next stroke taken becomes the ball in play provided the first ball is not found or is found to be in play. Hitting without announcing provisional for an additional ball is placing that ball as the ball in play and a stoke and distance is acknowledged by doing so. I still would also like to know where the two stroke penalty came from? There had to be more to the story as well. Perhaps he was penalized for moving the ball when it was in play and then placed it back down and played out the hole. Just a guess.

No... the whole point of the rule requiring a provisional to be so declared is so that there is no choice. If the original ball is found in bounds, then the provisional ball is abandoned.... period. The only way that the provisional ball can become the ball in play is if the original ball is found out of bounds or is not found. Even if the original ball is found to be completely unplayable, the provisional ball is still abandoned. The rules never allow for a player to have 2 balls in play at the same time with a choice as to which one to play.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No... the whole point of the rule requiring a provisional to be so declared is so that there is no choice. If the original ball is found in bounds, then the provisional ball is abandoned.... period. The only way that the provisional ball can become the ball in play is if the original ball is found out of bounds or is not found. Even if the original ball is found to be completely unplayable, the provisional ball is still abandoned. The rules never allow for a player to have 2 balls in play at the same time with a choice as to which one to play.

Correct, and even if you go to look for your ball and find out it's really bad in there, but your provisional is in position A, you can decide not to look for your ball, but your opponent is well within his rights to continue looking. It's only lost once either five minutes is up or you have played a shot not as a provisional.

There's an interesting aside to this, which is if you're playing the last hole, which is a par three say, and hit your ball in the woods. If you then hit a provisional and hole it out for a three with that ball, then you can't play your next shot to make the original lost, you can't declare your ball lost, so in theory there is nothing to stop your opponent from looking for the full five minutes for your ball, in the hope of finding it where you can't play it, or at least can't make three. There is, I understand, a provision within the decisions for this point that says if you pick your ball out of the hole before your opponent finds your ball, then the hole is deemed completed in three. So if that ever happens to you and your opponent is the sort who might go and look, it's time to run. Have fun...

[coralpro]

It is my understanding in rule 27-2 that a player can play a ball and not declare it as a provisional but must take a penalty of stroke and distance and the first ball is then deemed lost and the 2nd becomes the ball in play.

Rule 27. Ball Lost or Out of Bounds; Provisional Ball

Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

b. Ball Out of Bounds

If a ball is out of bounds, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

c. Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes

If a ball is lost as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's Side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

Exceptions:

1. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball that has not been found is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or is in an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

2. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball that has not been found has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or is in a water hazard (Rule 26-1), the player must proceed under the applicable Rule.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 27-1:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

27-2. Provisional Ball a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

(Order of play from teeing ground - see Rule 10-3.)

Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player must proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1.

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

c. When Provisional Ball to Be Abandoned

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If he makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No... the whole point of the rule requiring a provisional to be so declared is so that there is no choice. If the original ball is found in bounds, then the provisional ball is abandoned.... period. The only way that the provisional ball can become the ball in play is if the original ball is found out of bounds or is not found. Even if the original ball is found to be completely unplayable, the provisional ball is still abandoned. The rules never allow for a player to have 2 balls in play at the same time with a choice as to which one to play.

Thank you and I realize now the wording of choice was a bad one to use. I didn't intend for it to be that a person could look them over and say I would rather play that one. It gives the person the option of playing the first if found in play. The choice I meant was that without declaring provisional then the second is in play and no choice is offered should one find the first even if it was playable it no longer exists but as a lost ball. Sorry about that and thanks again.