What is a "Club-length"?

[Fileygolfer]

I had this discussion a long time ago and once again the new RofG have not put what they deem a Club-length in the Definitions.

Years ago a Pro hit his ball into some Gorse and took a penalty drop for an unplayable ball.
He measured the two club-lengths with his Driver and dropped the ball. It then ran into a bad lie, so he took out his Putter and measured two club-lengths with that, which came up short of where the ball had finished.
"Its rolled more than two club-lengths so I re-drop" he announced and did so.

He wasn't penalised for this but the PGA quickly but an unwritten Rule in, stating that a Club-lenth should be measured with the longest club in the bag, i.e. Driver.

I don't know if this Rule is still there as this happened in the early 80's.

[Ty_Webb]

I was under the impression that there was a gentlemen's agreement that if you use a long putter, you shouldn't use that to measure your clublengths as that was deemed unfair (not officially obviously), so in order for that to happen, I guess the PGA must have changed that rule.

Personally, I would avoid the situation you described by saying that you have to use the same club for any one instance, so the fact that this pro used his driver for the drop, would mean he had to use his driver for the did it roll two club lengths bit.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

I was under the impression that there was a gentlemen's agreement that if you use a long putter, you shouldn't use that to measure your clublengths as that was deemed unfair (not officially obviously), so in order for that to happen, I guess the PGA must have changed that rule.

Personally, I would avoid the situation you described by saying that you have to use the same club for any one instance, so the fact that this pro used his driver for the drop, would mean he had to use his driver for the did it roll two club lengths bit.

There is no "gentlemen's agreement". You can use any legal club in your bag, or in anyone else's bag as long as it is no longer than your longest club.

There is some other verbiage about clubs used for measuring, but don't have time to seek it out at the moment. I'm certain that anyone doing as Filey suggests would be subject to review by the committee if a claim is lodged and, and I think that there has to be something in the rules somewhere to cover this situation. I can't imagine the Filey is the only one to think of it since that incident he mentioned.

[Bulls9999]

Isn't there a situation where you have to use the club you actually intend to hit with? I could swear that is covered somewhere when measuring a 'club-length'?

Where's Atticus when you need him?

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

There is no "gentlemen's agreement". You can use any legal club in your bag, or in anyone else's bag as long as it is no longer than your longest club.

There is some other verbiage about clubs used for measuring, but don't have time to seek it out at the moment. I'm certain that anyone doing as Filey suggests would be subject to review by the committee if a claim is lodged and, and I think that there has to be something in the rules somewhere to cover this situation. I can't imagine the Filey is the only one to think of it since that incident he mentioned.

Filey

Decision 20/1 (I think anyway), states the following:

Q: A player, taking relief under a Rule, uses his driver to measure the one club-length or two club-lengths prescribed in the relevant Rule. He drops a ball correctly and the ball rolls less than two driver-lengths, but more than two putterlengths,
from where the ball first struck a part of the course when dropped.
Under Rule 20-2c, a dropped ball must be re-dropped if it rolls more than two club-lengths. If the ball comes to rest in a poor lie, may the player opt to use his putter to measure the distance his ball has rolled, in which case he would redrop under Rule 20-2c and escape the poor lie?

A: No. The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation.

Fourputt

I know that there is no rule about this and I should have been clearer when I originally posted. There's no gentlemen's agreement where club golf is concerned and you're more than welcome to use your long putter to measure your club length (I think you should expect to be called a variety of interesting and creative names by your opponents). What I was talking about was I'm pretty sure that on the European Tour, they had an agreement that people shouldn't use the long putter for this. That was quite a long time ago when the long putter was pretty much only the choice of Sam Torrance. Then again, my memory is a little hazy, so I may be wrong in my recollection.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Isn't there a situation where you have to use the club you actually intend to hit with? I could swear that is covered somewhere when measuring a 'club-length'?

Where's Atticus when you need him?

That would be the case if you are seeking relief because you have an immovable obstruction affecting your shot. If it was in the way with your driver, but not with your wedge, then you'd have to be intending to use your driver for the shot in order to use that to determine interference. If you intended to use your wedge, then you would have to use the wedge to determine whether the obstruction was actually obstructing you.

[Bulls9999]

Ty, thanks.

I just looked it up and you are correct:

Q. What club is used to determine if I get relief, and when measuring club-lengths?

From Brent Kelley,
Your Guide to Golf.
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A. These are two different questions with two different answers, but we're treating them as a single FAQ because many golfers confuse the two answers.
What's often confused is whether a player must measure using the club with which they'd be playing their next stroke. The answer is yes in one case, and no in the other.
Determining if You Get Relief from an Obstruction
Rule 24 covers Obstructions, both movable and immovable. If your ball comes to rest near an immovable obstruction, you are entitled to free relief if your ball "lies in or on the obstruction, or when the obstruction interferes with the player’s stance or the area of his intended swing." (We're talking through the green here; for other parameters, see Rule 24.)
Your ball is near the obstruction - the question is, does the obstruction interfere with the path of your intended swing? If so, you should identify the nearest point of relief, then drop within one club-length of that point, not nearer the hole.
To determine if the obstruction interferes with your intended swing, you'll need to simulate that swing. Here's the key point in this FAQ: When simulating the swing, you should use the club you would use if the obstruction was not there.
If you are 100 yards from the green, and you'd normally hit sand wedge from 100 yards, then you must use a sand wedge. Simulate your stance and your swing; if, using the sand wedge, the obstruction interferes, then you get relief. If it doesn't, then you don't. You can't pull out a 3-iron (or a longer club than the sand wedge) just to ensure that the obstruction will, in fact, interefere.
In the Rules, this procedure is spelled out in a note to the definition of "nearest point of relief": "In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke." So, when determining the nearest point of relief - that spot at which the obstruction would not interfere with your swing - you should use the club with which you'd play the stroke if the obstruction did not exist.
Measuring One or Two Club-Lengths
When taking relief from an obstruction, the player is allowed to drop within one club length of the nearest point of relief. Throughout the Rules of Golf, there are many situations in which a player will need to measure one or two club-lengths from a particular spot.

Let's follow up with our example from above involving the sand wedge. Using your sand wedge, you've determined that you are entitled to relief and you've found the nearest point of relief (that point where the obstruction doesn't interfere with your swing when using the sand wedge). Now, you must drop within one club length of that nearest point of relief. Do you have to use the sand wedge to measure one club length? No, in measuring club lengths for a drop, you can use any club you want. That means most of us will use the driver, the longest club in our bags; some golfers might carry long putters that are longer than drivers, and if you are one of those golfers, you may use the long putter. You can use any club in your bag to measure club-lengths for taking a drop.

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

That would be the case if you are seeking relief because you have an immovable obstruction affecting your shot. If it was in the way with your driver, but not with your wedge, then you'd have to be intending to use your driver for the shot in order to use that to determine interference. If you intended to use your wedge, then you would have to use the wedge to determine whether the obstruction was actually obstructing you.

[OnePutt]

I think most of you are also forgetting that the rules says, Within one club length. It doesn't say it has to be one club length, but WITHIN one club length. Two different things. Same for within 2 club lengths. You could drop your ball 6 or 8 inches from where is came to rest, and that would be WITHIN the 2 club lengths allowed.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I had this discussion a long time ago and once again the new RofG have not put what they deem a Club-length in the Definitions.

Years ago a Pro hit his ball into some Gorse and took a penalty drop for an unplayable ball.
He measured the two club-lengths with his Driver and dropped the ball. It then ran into a bad lie, so he took out his Putter and measured two club-lengths with that, which came up short of where the ball had finished.
"Its rolled more than two club-lengths so I re-drop" he announced and did so.

He wasn't penalised for this but the PGA quickly but an unwritten Rule in, stating that a Club-lenth should be measured with the longest club in the bag, i.e. Driver.

I don't know if this Rule is still there as this happened in the early 80's.

I can't find any specific prohibition for this in the rules, so I sent off an email to the USGA asking for a ruling. I'll report back when I hear from them... likely a couple of weeks.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I had this discussion a long time ago and once again the new RofG have not put what they deem a Club-length in the Definitions.

Years ago a Pro hit his ball into some Gorse and took a penalty drop for an unplayable ball.
He measured the two club-lengths with his Driver and dropped the ball. It then ran into a bad lie, so he took out his Putter and measured two club-lengths with that, which came up short of where the ball had finished.
"Its rolled more than two club-lengths so I re-drop" he announced and did so.

He wasn't penalised for this but the PGA quickly but an unwritten Rule in, stating that a Club-lenth should be measured with the longest club in the bag, i.e. Driver.

I don't know if this Rule is still there as this happened in the early 80's.

Unwritten rules aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I can't find any specific prohibition for this in the rules, so I sent off an email to the USGA asking for a ruling. I'll report back when I hear from them... likely a couple of weeks.

There's a decision that expressly forbids this. I posted a link to it in the other thread that talks about this.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

There's a decision that expressly forbids this. I posted a link to it in the other thread that talks about this.

I'd like to see it then. I'm not disputing you, I just want to know what decision it is. I haven't been able to find it, even in my new 2008 Decisions book with it's cross referenced index. I can find all sorts of references to procedures for finding NPR, for dropping and re-dropping, for relief from obstructions, etc. I can't find anything that says you have to use the same club that you measured to your dropping point with to measure the 2 clublengths of allowed roll.

I know it says that you should use the club for the intended stroke to take your stance and determine the NPR... even that procedure doesn't say must, and it is otherwise spelled out quite clearly. After determining the NPR, you can use any club in your bag to measure the one clublength from that point for your drop. I just can't find anything that says you can't then change to a shorter club to determine the amount of roll after the drop. Of course one could get around the whole issue by just using the shorter club to measure the one clublength in the first place... assuming that the roll and eventual unplayable lie would still be the result.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'd like to see it then. I'm not disputing you, I just want to know what decision it is. I haven't been able to find it, even in my new 2008 Decisions book with it's cross referenced index. I can find all sorts of references to procedures for finding NPR, for dropping and re-dropping, for relief from obstructions, etc. I can't find anything that says you have to use the same club that you measured to your dropping point with to measure the 2 clublengths of allowed roll.

I know it says that you should use the club for the intended stroke to take your stance and determine the NPR... even that procedure doesn't say must, and it is otherwise spelled out quite clearly. After determining the NPR, you can use any club in your bag to measure the one clublength from that point for your drop. I just can't find anything that says you can't then change to a shorter club to determine the amount of roll after the drop. Of course one could get around the whole issue by just using the shorter club to measure the one clublength in the first place... assuming that the roll and eventual unplayable lie would still be the result.

Post 5 in this thread actually. My mistake. I found it in the R&A rules application, so perhaps it's not in the USGA one, although I had thought they were basically now the same. I copied and pasted what's in the post.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

Post 5 in this thread actually. My mistake. I found it in the R&A rules application, so perhaps it's not in the USGA one, although I had thought they were basically now the same. I copied and pasted what's in the post.

That quote doesn't say anything about what we are asking though.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

Filey

Decision 20/1 (I think anyway), states the following:

Q: A player, taking relief under a Rule, uses his driver to measure the one club-length or two club-lengths prescribed in the relevant Rule. He drops a ball correctly and the ball rolls less than two driver-lengths, but more than two putterlengths,
from where the ball first struck a part of the course when dropped.
Under Rule 20-2c, a dropped ball must be re-dropped if it rolls more than two club-lengths. If the ball comes to rest in a poor lie, may the player opt to use his putter to measure the distance his ball has rolled, in which case he would redrop under Rule 20-2c and escape the poor lie?

A: No. The player must continue to use the club he originally used for measuring for all measuring in a given situation.

This quote. As far as I can see, this is talking about exactly the situation described. Player measures two clublengths, drops it, then uses a different club to measure how far the ball rolled after dropping it. That's the question, the answer is no. What am I missing?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I had this discussion a long time ago and once again the new RofG have not put what they deem a Club-length in the Definitions.

Years ago a Pro hit his ball into some Gorse and took a penalty drop for an unplayable ball.
He measured the two club-lengths with his Driver and dropped the ball. It then ran into a bad lie, so he took out his Putter and measured two club-lengths with that, which came up short of where the ball had finished.
"Its rolled more than two club-lengths so I re-drop" he announced and did so.

He wasn't penalized for this but the PGA quickly but an unwritten Rule in, stating that a Club-length should be measured with the longest club in the bag, i.e. Driver.

I don't know if this Rule is still there as this happened in the early 80's.

Y'ah know,, I have suffered though countless discussions where posters complain about stupid rules, and I get some heat for rejecting "valid" arguments for change, so now I want some justice. This question about what is a club length is ridiculous. A clublength is the length of a club.

Waste of bandwidth.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

This quote. As far as I can see, this is talking about exactly the situation described. Player measures two clublengths, drops it, then uses a different club to measure how far the ball rolled after dropping it. That's the question, the answer is no. What am I missing?

I went to the wrong quote.... Too many posts to sift through and I got a bit hasty. You are correct, and I wasted the USGA's time and mine.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

A clublength is the length of a club.

BUT WHICH CLUB?????????

A simple addition to the Definitions of:-

Club-length
To measure "Club-length" a player should use the longest club, but not a Putter.

Simple, so why has it not been done?



I like to prevent problems, not wait for them to appear before trying to solve them.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I went to the wrong quote.... Too many posts to sift through and I got a bit hasty. You are correct, and I wasted the USGA's time and mine.

I don't think its a waste of time to clear up an issue.

I've learned from Cink's DQ, without us discussing Rules I wouldn't have.