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-   -   Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday (http://golfrewound.com/forums/rules-situations/6075-cink-dqd-zurich-open-caddie-raking-bunker-yesterday.html)

Bulls9999 03-30-2008 02:40 PM

Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
I noticed that Cink got DQ'd, but just learned why.

During today's round, he revealed to an official that yesterday, he was in a bunker, or on the lip of the bunker, and stepped into the bunker to hit his shot and it went into another bunker 200 yrds away. Then his caddie raked the sand. He got DQ'd because (according to the announcer relaying official's response) he is not allowed to rake the first bunker until after he hits the next bunker shot because it is considered 'testing the sand'??? Yea, I guess the caddie is supposed to jog back 200 yrds to rake the first bunker. Is one bunker supposed to be categorically representative of all bunkers? Heck, at my course (obviously not PGA course), can have actual sand in one and hardpan clay in another. So he was escorted away while playing the 7th hole.

Fileygolfer 03-30-2008 03:03 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
I for one would kick up a massive stink if I was playing behind and ended up in Cink's footprint.
Something doesn't sound right here.

JungleJ 03-30-2008 03:11 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Rule 13-4

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

straightshooter 03-30-2008 04:08 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Wow, that's something!! I thought that would have been OK, if it was a different bunker. I also wouldn't have considered that the caddy acts as an extension of the player in this instance.

And I wonder how many tournaments have been won by a player/caddie pair that violated this rule! Does this rule apply when a player hits from one bunker to a different bunker?

atticusfinch 03-30-2008 04:22 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleJ (Post 110793)
Rule 13-4

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

Correct, and the term "similar" refers to the basic difference between water hazards and bunkers. It does not refer to the possibility that one bunker may contain a different type of sand than the other.

HackBlack 03-30-2008 05:32 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
That might possibly be the worst rules interpretation I have every heard of.

I bet Cink was dropping some f bombs when he was informed of that!

Bulls9999 03-30-2008 06:08 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Not sure I understand your question....that's exactly what he did, hit from one bunker to another, but raking the sand in the first bunker was considered 'testing the conditions' (of the hazard) in the 2nd, similar bunker. Very obtuse rule, imo. The problem lay in having brought it up today regarding having done it yesterday, card was signed and submitted without the penalty....signed for a lower score = DQ, ouch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by straightshooter (Post 110801)
Wow, that's something!! I thought that would have been OK, if it was a different bunker. I also wouldn't have considered that the caddy acts as an extension of the player in this instance.

And I wonder how many tournaments have been won by a player/caddie pair that violated this rule! Does this rule apply when a player hits from one bunker to a different bunker?


atticusfinch 03-30-2008 06:15 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HackBlack (Post 110808)
That might possibly be the worst rules interpretation I have every heard of.

I bet Cink was dropping some f bombs when he was informed of that!

It's my understanding that Cink informed the committee of the infraction not some mysterious conspirator.

mr_bogey 03-30-2008 06:22 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleJ (Post 110793)
Rule 13-4

Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

Something is fishy here. By the way this rule reads, if I hit into a sand hazard on the first hole and rake the bunker upon my exit, I am in violation if I hit into any other sand hazard during that round, since I have already tested the condition of a similar hazard. I have to believe this rule was either misinterpreted or we haven't gotten the complete story.

JimSomebody 03-30-2008 06:50 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
So if I hit my tee shot into a fairway bunker, and from there I hit into a greenside bunker, I can't rake the fairway bunker till after I've hit out of the greenside bunker?

TexasWedge 03-30-2008 07:03 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimSomebody (Post 110822)
So if I hit my tee shot into a fairway bunker, and from there I hit into a greenside bunker, I can't rake the fairway bunker till after I've hit out of the greenside bunker?

It sounds like that's what they're saying the interpretation of the rule is, but I highly doubt that is correct. We have all seen players play out of fairway bunkers and hit into greenside bunkers and their caddie rakes the bunker after he's done in the fairway bunker. I know I've never seen a penalty assessed for that. I think this will be discussed at some point and the ruling will be clarified at some point. I just can't believe that could possibly be right. Like someone else said...you wouldn't be allowed to rake ANY bunkers from start to finish, based on that rule interpretation.

JimSomebody 03-30-2008 07:16 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
OK, here's more of the story:
Quote:

Stewart Cink was disqualified -- or, rather, he disqualified himself -- after falling victim to a USGA rule that was instituted last October regarding bunker play. Cink hit his tee shot on the 15th hole of the third round onto the periphery of a fairway bunker. He stepped into the bunker, then stepped out and hit his shot. The approach landed some 180 yards away, but in a greenside bunker. Before playing his third shot, Cink's caddie raked the fairway bunker where his man had stepped, which by the new standards is an illegal practice. (He would have needed to wait until after Cink had hit his next shot from the greenside bunker.) Because Cink didn't assess a penalty on himself, it was later deemed that he had signed an incorrect scorecard.
From
ESPN - Giving invites to PGA Tour champs was a masterful decision - Golf
where there's a little more info.

Gotta remember this one next time I'm in a close match. I assume the penalty in match play is loss of hole.:mischief:

JPsuff 03-30-2008 08:13 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
.


Now I've heard everything.

This is now officially the MOST RIDICULOUS RULE IN ALL OF GOLF.

What gets me about this one is that Cink didn't rake the bunker so how could HE have tested the conditions? Did his caddie Mind Meld with him before his next shot or what?

So as JimSomebody pointed out, "...if I hit my tee shot into a fairway bunker, and from there I hit into a greenside bunker, I can't rake the fairway bunker till after I've hit out of the greenside bunker?" Yeah, that'll go over real well on a crowded Saturday at the ol' muni!


Does the USGA have nothing better to do than to come up with idiotic rules such as this one?




-JP

Bulls9999 03-30-2008 08:47 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Well, I don't think you need to even 'rake' a bunker in order to be deemed 'testing the conditions'. If you pick a club and walk into a hazard and set your feet, digging them into the sand, and then decide you want to hit another club.... isn't that itself considered 'testing the conditions' and therefore you can't select another club? So by that scenario...I'm using USGA logic here fellas.....once you've entered a bunker and dug your feet in, if you get into another hazard, have you not already 'tested the conditions'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPsuff (Post 110830)
.


Now I've heard everything.

This is now officially the MOST RIDICULOUS RULE IN ALL OF GOLF.

What gets me about this one is that Cink didn't rake the bunker so how could HE have tested the conditions? Did his caddie Mind Meld with him before his next shot or what?

So as JimSomebody pointed out, "...if I hit my tee shot into a fairway bunker, and from there I hit into a greenside bunker, I can't rake the fairway bunker till after I've hit out of the greenside bunker?" Yeah, that'll go over real well on a crowded Saturday at the ol' muni!


Does the USGA have nothing better to do than to come up with idiotic rules such as this one?




-JP


JimmyRoberts 03-30-2008 09:10 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimSomebody (Post 110822)
So if I hit my tee shot into a fairway bunker, and from there I hit into a greenside bunker, I can't rake the fairway bunker till after I've hit out of the greenside bunker?

Not quite. If your ball lands in bunker and you hit the ball into another bunker, you can rake the sand. 13-4a; Exception 3:
3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made

Once you made a stroke in the bunker, you've necessarily tested the condition of the hazard and rule 13-4a is moot at that point. The problem in Cink's case is that the ball was not in the bunker; he merely stepped into the bunker so exception 3 does not apply.

Players should of course follow etiquette. But as far as going back to rake the fairway bunker, I think it would be OK not to do that in this rare case. Especially if it will slow down play. I suppose one could ask an official to have somebody rake the bunker. *shrug*

As silly as it may seem, they didn't really have a choice once Cink brought it to their attention. I have a feeling this rule will be ammended again in 2010.

bignose 03-30-2008 09:17 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
At the very least -- doesn't hitting the ball out of the first bunker effectively "test the conditions" as well as anything else? I mean -- what more information can really be gathered that wasn't gathered when making the stroke? If you hit it well in the first place, then your read on the conditions was correct anyway, and if you hit it poorly, you probably learned what you should have done.

I agree with JP -- this is now the most ridiculous rule in golf if this is indeed how the rules are supposed to be interpreted. There needs to be a provision in place that says that you can always rake your bunker after your shot so long as the result of that shot didn't end up in another bunker within 25 yards (or something like that). That should be enough to catch any case where you hit from one greenside bunker into another. Or make it 50 yards. But having either yourself or your caddy have to go back up the fairway 200 yards to rake only after you hit your next shot from a greenside bunker is silly. I understand the intent of the rule, but I just don't see how any significantly extra information can be gathered from raking a bunker after the shot already been executed. The intent is to prevent the player from gathering information before the shot is played.

Here's a quote from JimSomebody's link above:

Quote:

It's Rule 13-4 that does not allow a player to test the sand or test the surface of a hazard prior to playing his initial stroke. Now, since Stewart played the ball from outside the hazard into a hazard, but stood in a hazard, raking the sand is designated to be testing the surface. Had he played his original shot from that fairway bunker, then he would have already played his initial shot and the caddie could have gone ahead and raked the bunker."
What?!? The ruling on this changes depending on where Cink stood?!? Is there any other rule in golf where the ruling changes depending on where a player stands? (And not the simple one about building a stance.) I'm serious, I hadn't ever come across a situation where where the player stands when making a stroke changes the ruling.

edited to add: JimmyR must have posted while I was typing, because I just saw that exception to the rule that corresponds to what I was saying. I still want to know if there is any other interpretation/rule that depends on where the player stands when they make a stoke, though.

Nikeguy07 03-30-2008 09:33 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
If I understand this right, he DID NOT HIT A SHOT OUT OF THE FIRST BUNKER...he stepped in, and stepped out THEN hit a shot in the "periphery of a fairway bunker" so then he hit his ball into another bunker, he and raked the first bunker it was "testing the conditions" I think it makes sense.....

Bulls9999 03-30-2008 09:42 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
OK, we seem to have gotten that straight, now 2 more questions:

1. Even if he didn't 'rake the bunker', would simply the act of stepping in the bunker and setting your feet (don't know if he done this) constitute 'testing the conditions'?

2. Following along the Cink scenario....if he didn't get into that 2nd bunker, but got into one on a subsequent hole, would that constitute the same situation he found himself in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikeguy07 (Post 110845)
If I understand this right, he DID NOT HIT A SHOT OUT OF THE FIRST BUNKER...he stepped in, and stepped out THEN hit a shot in the "periphery of a fairway bunker" so then he hit his ball into another bunker, he and raked the first bunker it was "testing the conditions" I think it makes sense.....


JimmyRoberts 03-30-2008 10:07 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bignose
What?!? The ruling on this changes depending on where Cink stood?!? Is there any other rule in golf where the ruling changes depending on where a player stands? (And not the simple one about building a stance.) I'm serious, I hadn't ever come across a situation where where the player stands when making a stroke changes the ruling.

It didn't have anything to do with where he was standing. It had to do with the lie of the ball. Since the ball was not in the fairway bunker, the exception to 13-4a did not apply. If the ball had been in the fairway bunker, then the exception would apply and no penalty would have been assessed- whether he stood in the bunker or not.

The penalty was for testing the condition of a similar hazard, not where he stood to make his shot. He stepped into the sand and then his caddie raked it before he played his next shot from a similar hazard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulls9999
1. Even if he didn't 'rake the bunker', would simply the act of stepping in the bunker and setting your feet (don't know if he done this) constitute 'testing the conditions'?

Apparently not. Unless you can hit the ball standing at the edge of the bunker, one would have to walk into the bunker to play the next shot. If merely stepping into the bunker was deemed testing the conditions, we'd all be getting 2 strokes for playing most bunker shots. The rules don't seem to be clear about what constitutes testing the conditions of a hazard though. I suppose raking the sand is as bad or worse than touching it with your club which is a clear violation of the rules.

Quote:

2. Following along the Cink scenario....if he didn't get into that 2nd bunker, but got into one on a subsequent hole, would that constitute the same situation he found himself in?
No. You would have to be 'testing the condition' of the hazard or another similar hazard while the ball is in the bunker. That doesn't include what you did on the previous hole or even before the previous stroke; just what's done immediately before your next shot. Example:
1) You hit the ball -which is outside the bunker- while standing in the bunker. It lands in the fairway.
2) You rake the sand.
3) You hit your next shot from the fairway into another bunker.

No penalty since you weren't raking the sand while the ball was lying in a similar hazard.

Bigvivec 03-31-2008 03:50 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by atticusfinch (Post 110803)
Correct, and the term "similar" refers to the basic difference between water hazards and bunkers. It does not refer to the possibility that one bunker may contain a different type of sand than the other.

Some of golf's rules are not very user friendly at best...

A rake needs to be developed that provides the user zero feedback of what is being raked...then all the greenside bunkers that a quarter of the shots from one end up in the other would stay raked and not a mess because someone was just playing by the rules...:shakehead:

Bigvivec 03-31-2008 03:53 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Besides it was his caddy...

Maybe the PGA stopped a plot to defraud it's event dead in it's tracks...they should have bashed the knuckles of the caddy and Cink in a back room mafia style like in "Casino" when the cheating gamblers were caught...

Plain silly...in line with the rules, but silly...

Fileygolfer 03-31-2008 05:18 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
So listen here guys.
Hit a Provisional off a tee that ends in a bunker and you then find your origional ball, LEAVE YOUR PROVISIONAL WHERE IT IS because under USGA interpritations your testing the surface if you walk into the bunker to get your ball and then rake your footprints.

Batteaux 03-31-2008 05:45 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikeguy07 (Post 110845)
If I understand this right, he DID NOT HIT A SHOT OUT OF THE FIRST BUNKER...he stepped in, and stepped out THEN hit a shot in the "periphery of a fairway bunker" so then he hit his ball into another bunker, he and raked the first bunker it was "testing the conditions" I think it makes sense.....

Correct- he was not in the first bunker. but he stepped into it thus his caddie decided to smooth out his foot print. If he had been in the 1st bunker and then hit his shot into the 2nd bunker the raking would have been OK.

Also the way he spoke he called the penalty on himself - pretty impressive.

JungleJ 03-31-2008 05:48 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulls9999 (Post 110848)
OK, we seem to have gotten that straight, now 2 more questions:

1. Even if he didn't 'rake the bunker', would simply the act of stepping in the bunker and setting your feet (don't know if he done this) constitute 'testing the conditions'?

2. Following along the Cink scenario....if he didn't get into that 2nd bunker, but got into one on a subsequent hole, would that constitute the same situation he found himself in?

Point 1 - no
Point 2 - again no, Rule 13-4 only applies when your ball is in a hazard.

Fileygolfer 03-31-2008 06:43 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulls9999 (Post 110848)
OK, we seem to have gotten that straight, now 2 more questions:


2. Following along the Cink scenario....if he didn't get into that 2nd bunker, but got into one on a subsequent hole, would that constitute the same situation he found himself in?

Sounds very much like it.

Johneli 03-31-2008 06:52 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Another idiotic rule by the same people who gave you the "hit out of another player's divot rule."

petermo 03-31-2008 07:25 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Nooooo!

JPsuff 03-31-2008 07:31 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
.


I know that the rules junkies are going to quote this rule and swear to its "fairness" but no matter how many times they do that, it won't make this "rule" any less idiotic for one basic reason which is that every golfer (other than perhaps a twice-a-year hacker) "tests" the condition of the sand every time he or she steps into ANY bunker.

Case in point:

We've all played a course after a night of heavy rain. And we all know that some bunkers drain better than others and as a result, some remain "fluffy" while others become rather firm and stay that way until they've had a chance to dry out.
So let's say that I enter a bunker with my 55 degree wedge with the big bounce as I normally do, but after I've walked to my ball I feel that the sand is very firm and I walk out of the bunker, put the 55 back in the bag and grab the 51 instead because I now want to "pinch" this shot rather than play a traditional "explosion" because I've determined that the sand is too firm for a high-bounce wedge.

Question: What caused me to change my mind?

Answer: By walking into the bunker I felt the firmness of the sand and decided to change clubs.

Conclusion: I have "tested the conditions".



So does that mean that any time I enter a bunker holding one club and then change clubs before making my shot I should assess myself a penalty stroke for "violating" Rule 13-4? After all, the only reason I would change clubs would be because I decided that the club I had was wrong for the conditions after "testing" those conditions by stepping into the bunker, right?
This then would apply to ANY instance in which I changed clubs after first stepping into the bunker.

And what about wiggling one's feet to get comfortable before hitting a bunker shot? Couldn't THAT TOO be construed as "testing the conditions"? Actually, I consider that as "building a stance", but since it didn't involve a towel, I guess it's overlooked as a violation, but that's a whole 'nother argument. It may not cause me to change clubs, but it might cause me to alter my swing or setup right? So why isn't THAT a penalty as well?

Summary: This is a STUPID RULE and it needs to be changed.



-JP

Bulls9999 03-31-2008 08:21 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
JP, I always understand (i.e., was told by a jr. tournament official) close to the way you presented it, that if you took a club into a bunker and after having 'dug your feet in', you have in effect 'tested the conditions' and can not select another club (you simply state stepping into the bunker, but close enough).

So, if you step into a bunker to hit a shot because the ball is on the grass edge of the bunker and set your feet, or even if you don't set your feet, this rule suggests you can't rake the sand for fear of being considered to have 'tested the conditions' if you subsequently find yourself in a bunker, either on the current or subsequent holes? I would then leave the bunker unraked, but doesn't merely stepping in and setting your feet constitute the same? I think I'll send this one off to USGA.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JPsuff (Post 110890)
.


I know that the rules junkies are going to quote this rule and swear to its "fairness" but no matter how many times they do that, it won't make this "rule" any less idiotic for one basic reason which is that every golfer (other than perhaps a twice-a-year hacker) "tests" the condition of the sand every time he or she steps into ANY bunker.

Case in point:

We've all played a course after a night of heavy rain. And we all know that some bunkers drain better than others and as a result, some remain "fluffy" while others become rather firm and stay that way until they've had a chance to dry out.
So let's say that I enter a bunker with my 55 degree wedge with the big bounce as I normally do, but after I've walked to my ball I feel that the sand is very firm and I walk out of the bunker, put the 55 back in the bag and grab the 51 instead because I now want to "pinch" this shot rather than play a traditional "explosion" because I've determined that the sand is too firm for a high-bounce wedge.

Question: What caused me to change my mind?

Answer: By walking into the bunker I felt the firmness of the sand and decided to change clubs.

Conclusion: I have "tested the conditions".



So does that mean that any time I enter a bunker holding one club and then change clubs before making my shot I should assess myself a penalty stroke for "violating" Rule 13-4? After all, the only reason I would change clubs would be because I decided that the club I had was wrong for the conditions after "testing" those conditions by stepping into the bunker, right?
This then would apply to ANY instance in which I changed clubs after first stepping into the bunker.

And what about wiggling one's feet to get comfortable before hitting a bunker shot? Couldn't THAT TOO be construed as "testing the conditions"? Actually, I consider that as "building a stance", but since it didn't involve a towel, I guess it's overlooked as a violation, but that's a whole 'nother argument. It may not cause me to change clubs, but it might cause me to alter my swing or setup right? So why isn't THAT a penalty as well?

Summary: This is a STUPID RULE and it needs to be changed.



-JP


JungleJ 03-31-2008 09:43 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulls9999 (Post 110897)
JP, I always understand (i.e., was told by a jr. tournament official) close to the way you presented it, that if you took a club into a bunker and after having 'dug your feet in', you have in effect 'tested the conditions' and can not select another club (you simply state stepping into the bunker, but close enough).

So, if you step into a bunker to hit a shot because the ball is on the grass edge of the bunker and set your feet, or even if you don't set your feet, this rule suggests you can't rake the sand for fear of being considered to have 'tested the conditions' if you subsequently find yourself in a bunker, either on the current or subsequent holes? I would then leave the bunker unraked, but doesn't merely stepping in and setting your feet constitute the same? I think I'll send this one off to USGA.

You can only be guilty of "testing the conditions" under Rule 13-4 if your ball is currently in a hazard. AF may correct me but as I see it there is nothing wrong with doing any of the following, provided your ball in play is not in a hazard:

1 - raking a bunker
2 - walking through a bunker (not that you would do this)
3 - taking a practice swing in a bunker and raking up afterwards

Incidentally according to Decision 13-4/0.5 - setting your feet to take your swing or a practice swing does not constitute testing the condition of the hazard. Decision 13-4/26 shows that you can change clubs after taking your stance in a hazard.

Bulls9999 03-31-2008 10:02 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
I think I'm getting closer to seeing the nuances. Many of the posts were considering the first bunker (which the ball was not in, but was stepped in) vs. the 2nd bunker as 2 distinct events. But at the time the raking was done, Cink's ball already was laying in the 2nd bunker, so raking the 1st bunker put him in a position that he was 'testing the conditions of the hazard' (i.e., 2nd bunker, but similar hazard). So this is the predicament? Getting into a hazard on subsequent holes wouldn't be the same issue because he wouldn't be raking at the same time the ball lay in a hazard.

Thanks, for some reason it was ingrained in my head that you couldn't change clubs in a hazard once you took your stance for the 'testing conditions' rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleJ (Post 110906)
You can only be guilty of "testing the conditions" under Rule 13-4 if your ball is currently in a hazard. AF may correct me but as I see it there is nothing wrong with doing any of the following, provided your ball in play is not in a hazard:

1 - raking a bunker
2 - walking through a bunker (not that you would do this)
3 - taking a practice swing in a bunker and raking up afterwards

Incidentally according to Decision 13-4/0.5 - setting your feet to take your swing or a practice swing does not constitute testing the condition of the hazard. Decision 13-4/26 shows that you can change clubs after taking your stance in a hazard.


Fileygolfer 03-31-2008 10:11 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleJ (Post 110906)
You can only be guilty of "testing the conditions" under Rule 13-4 if your ball is currently in a hazard. AF may correct me but as I see it there is nothing wrong with doing any of the following, provided your ball in play is not in a hazard:

1 - raking a bunker
2 - walking through a bunker (not that you would do this)
3 - taking a practice swing in a bunker and raking up afterwards

Incidentally according to Decision 13-4/0.5 - setting your feet to take your swing or a practice swing does not constitute testing the condition of the hazard. Decision 13-4/26 shows that you can change clubs after taking your stance in a hazard.

So what you are saying is that if Cink had got his Caddie to rake the bunker BEFORE he hit his shot, it would have been OK.

Bigvivec 03-31-2008 10:30 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
No penalty for not raking...maybe that's the way to go...:raspberry:

Idiots...

atticusfinch 03-31-2008 11:27 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JPsuff (Post 110890)
.


After all, the only reason I would change clubs would be because I decided that the club I had was wrong for the conditions after "testing" those conditions by stepping into the bunker, right?
This then would apply to ANY instance in which I changed clubs after first stepping into the bunker.

And what about wiggling one's feet to get comfortable before hitting a bunker shot? Couldn't THAT TOO be construed as "testing the conditions"? Actually, I consider that as "building a stance", but since it didn't involve a towel, I guess it's overlooked as a violation, but that's a whole 'nother argument. It may not cause me to change clubs, but it might cause me to alter my swing or setup right? So why isn't THAT a penalty as well?

Summary: This is a STUPID RULE and it needs to be changed.



-JP


Yes, both of those actions test the condition but they are allowed exceptions.

Wazmankg 03-31-2008 11:29 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Bad rule. They'll clean it up the next time they get the chance hopefully. This discussion brought another question to mind. Is it within the rules for me, on the first hole for instance, to just step into a bunker and take a couple of practice swings even though my ball is not in the bunker ?

JungleJ 03-31-2008 11:32 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wazmankg (Post 110922)
Bad rule. They'll clean it up the next time they get the chance hopefully. This discussion brought another question to mind. Is it within the rules for me, on the first hole for instance, to just step into a bunker and take a couple of practice swings even though my ball is not in the bunker ?

I can't think of a reason why this would not be allowed. In fact I think I saw Bernhard Langer do this once.

Bulls9999 03-31-2008 12:59 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
You know, I think according to the now understood ruling, that probably would have been ok, even though it still seems stupid to have "testing the conditions" in one bunker represent any other discontinuous bunker/hazard. It's a rule that may work for PGA course kept to the utmost level of performance and upkeep, but to 99.9% of everyday golfers (as has been already stated), you can have soft sand in one bunker and the next is hardpack clay due to poor drainage or sand washed out, etc. Actually, on our home course, the grounds people are continuously asked if they purposely keep different bunkers to different conditions, or if it is due to their own neglect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer (Post 110912)
So what you are saying is that if Cink had got his Caddie to rake the bunker BEFORE he hit his shot, it would have been OK.

I think this has been a good thread to stimulate thinking and discussion.

Putton 03-31-2008 03:21 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Considering the recent talk about slow play, the USGA and R & A are actively promoting it.

Fourputt 04-01-2008 11:12 AM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Getting back to Stewart Cink.... Why wouldn't Exception 3 to Rule 13-4 apply?

Quote:

Exceptions:

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or
(b) places his clubs in a hazard.

2. After making the stroke, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from the hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the ball is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.
It seems to me that the exception I bolded overrides the wording in 13-4a.

atticusfinch 04-01-2008 12:08 PM

Re: Cink DQ'd from Zurich Open for caddie raking bunker yesterday
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt (Post 111198)
Getting back to Stewart Cink.... Why wouldn't Exception 3 to Rule 13-4 apply?



It seems to me that the exception I bolded overrides the wording in 13-4a.

Did he make a stroke in the first bunker? I heard his ball was outside and he stood in the bunker.


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