Before You Lift Your Ball

[Fourputt]

Fred is playing in the Club Championship, 4 rounds, stroke play. On the 4th hole in the second round, he hits his tee shot a bit to the right of the fairway, and it comes to rest on a cart path (an obstruction) that runs through an area of heavy native rough. He gets to his ball, and takes a quick look, sees that his nearest point of relief is obviously to the right of the obstruction. He lifts the ball, locates the NPR, measures one clublength, and discovers that his ball will be in 16" deep native grass, and that there is a small bush that will probably interfere with his swing. The ball may well be unplayable where it has to be dropped. Because of this he decides to go ahead and play it from where it lay on the cart path, and he puts it back down there and plays on. After returning his card, Fred is disqualified by the committee for returning an incorrect score.

What did Fred do here?

[coralpro]

Once the ball is lifted and relief taken he can't choose the lesser of two evils. The ball is in play from the drop point. He actually commited several rules infractions and didn't access the penalties to himself and finished the hole then teed his next stroke on the following hole which was enough for disqualification for playing from the wrong spot and not correcting the mistake.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by coralpro

Once the ball is lifted and relief taken he can't choose the lesser of two evils. The ball is in play from the drop point. He actually commited several rules infractions and didn't access the penalties to himself and finished the hole then teed his next stroke on the following hole which was enough for disqualification for playing from the wrong spot and not correcting the mistake.

Did he drop the ball?

[Bulls9999]

1. He didn't mark the ball before lifting. Always mark the original position of the ball before doing anything !!!!
2. If he was going to hit it from the original position, then he should have picked it up (is this like the Romero penalty this past weekend)?

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Fred is playing in the Club Championship, 4 rounds, stroke play. On the 4th hole in the second round, he hits his tee shot a bit to the right of the fairway, and it comes to rest on a cart path (an obstruction) that runs through an area of heavy native rough. He gets to his ball, and takes a quick look, sees that his nearest point of relief is obviously to the right of the obstruction. He lifts the ball, locates the NPR, measures one clublength, and discovers that his ball will be in 16" deep native grass, and that there is a small bush that will probably interfere with his swing. The ball may well be unplayable where it has to be dropped. Because of this he decides to go ahead and play it from where it lay on the cart path, and he puts it back down there and plays on. After returning his card, Fred is disqualified by the committee for returning an incorrect score.

What did Fred do here?

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Did he drop the ball?

He didn't drop it but he lifted it. So he chose to take relief and should follow the relief procedure or the lesser would be to place the ball back where it was marked and take the two stroke penalty for touching a ball in play but not adding the penalty strokes would still be grounds for disqualification once the was signed. Thanks for pointing that out that it never touched the course according to the OP.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

1. He didn't mark the ball before lifting. Always mark the original position of the ball before doing anything !!!!

Do you have to mark the ball when taking relief from an immovable obstruction?

[JungleJ]

Rule 24-2 says that he must drop the ball when taking relief. Having lifted it he had to drop it, not place it. He didn't have to take relief but once he had lifted his ball he was committed.

[Bulls9999]

I think so....

20-1. Lifting and Marking
A ball to be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his partner or another person authorized by the player. In any such case, the player is responsible for any breach of the Rules.

The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2a.
Exception: If a player incurs a penalty for failing to act in accordance with Rule 5-3 or 12-2, there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.
Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Do you have to mark the ball when taking relief from an immovable obstruction?

So, if he didn't mark the ball, and proceeded to grab it and the ball moves, it must be replaced. A ball must be marked that needs to be placed?

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Do you have to mark the ball when taking relief from an immovable obstruction?

No. The rules only state it may be lifted and dropped.

24-2. Immovable Obstruction a. Interference

Interference by an immovable obstruction occurs when a ball lies in or on the obstruction, or when the obstruction interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing. If the player's ball lies on the putting green, interference also occurs if an immovable obstruction on the putting green intervenes on his line of putt. Otherwise, intervention on the line of play is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.

b. Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:

(i) Through the Green:If the ball lies through the green, the player must lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the immovable obstruction and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I think so....

[size=3]20-1.
The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a that requires it to be replaced.

Read carefully, it says the ball must be marked if lifted under a rule that requires it to be replaced.

Rule 25 does not require replacement of a ball lifted for relief, thus it does not have to be marked. A ball lifted for ID or on the green must be replaced, and therefore must be marked.

[Bulls9999]

Read the entire rule => if you were reaching for the ball and it moved, it must be "replaced" .... you can not replace the ball if it is not marked.

Also read the "NOTE:" Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball.

There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2a.

So you reduce your risk by marking....if it moves in the process of marking the ball, no penalty. If you don't mark it and the ball moves without marking, you're penalized?

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Read carefully, it says the ball must be marked if lifted under a rule that requires it to be replaced.

Rule 25 does not require replacement of a ball lifted for relief, thus it does not have to be marked. A ball lifted for ID or on the green must be replaced, and therefore must be marked.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Read the entire rule => if you were reaching for the ball and it moved, it must be "replaced" .... you can not replace the ball if it is not marked.

Also read the "NOTE:" Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball.

I posted this because it is such a supposedly simple procedure, yet I see so many mistakes made by players who thought they knew the rule, so I decided to get some opinions and discussion. Several myths have already been brought up during the discussion, so I'm glad that I posted it like I did. I considered putting it up a couple of different ways, but this seemed to offer the best option for promoting discussion.

To answer one question, when he put the ball back in its original position on the obstruction, he placed it. Also, the rules do not require a ball lifted from an obstruction with the intent of taking relief to be marked, because there is no intent to replace it.

Ok... intermission over, you may continue...

[Bulls9999]

But even so, would you feel comfortable picking up a ball and working out club-length distances and then have an official come by and ask you where the original spot of the ball was to see if you made the correct assumption for 'nearest point of relief' and all you can say is "over there somewhere?" from which the nearest point of relief would be dependent on the original position of the ball?

I don't know about that.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Read carefully, it says the ball must be marked if lifted under a rule that requires it to be replaced.

Rule 25 does not require replacement of a ball lifted for relief, thus it does not have to be marked. A ball lifted for ID or on the green must be replaced, and therefore must be marked.

[coralpro]

Bulls I've seen most pros lay a tee down or a coin to mark the place on a cart path but they don't HAVE to. The problem is if he lifts it to take relief then he must drop it. He can't place the ball unless it keeps rolling closer to the hole. The way I understand the rules is he HAS to drop the ball even if it was at the original location once he lifted it.

[Bulls9999]

OK, you don't have to mark it.

....but I will anyway.

Originally Posted by coralpro

Bulls I've seen most pros lay a tee down or a coin to mark the place on a cart path but they don't HAVE to. The problem is if he lifts it to take relief then he must drop it. He can't place the ball unless it keeps rolling closer to the hole. The way I understand the rules is he HAS to drop the ball even if it was at the original location once he lifted it.

[Fourputt]

Just a hint.... once you lift the ball from an obstruction, you MUST take relief, or you will be penalized. Through the green you are only allowed to lift the ball for the purpose of taking relief, for identification, or to inspect for damage. In this case, if you haven't stated any intent to lift it for the latter two reasons, then you have lifted it to take relief. At that point, you can't change your mind without penalty. That is why marking is not required.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I don't know about that.

I do. You are talking about two different situatiions. One, marking the ball when a rule requires it to be replaced, and replacing a ball that has been moved.

If you inadvertantly move the ball it must be replaced, but it did not have to be marked, so you get as close as you can, or drop, depending on circumstances.

You can mark the ball's location at anytime to be safe, but it is not required in all cases. Ex would you mark the ball in this case? You are taking some practice swings in the fairway and accidentally nick the ball moving it a few feet. You are required to replace the ball, but unless you are the most anal person on the planet, you would not have marked it, right?

[Bulls9999]

OK, one last time before I get a bigger headache than I have now.

You do have to mark something....to identify where the club-length is, the end of the club-length beyond which it can't roll, whether using the club or a tee to mark the club-length (start and finish, so it can't roll closer to the hole). You just can't pick up the ball with nothing else on the ground and start walking around deciding where/which direction the club length will be?

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just a hint.... once you lift the ball from an obstruction, you MUST take relief, or you will be penalized. Through the green you are only allowed to lift the ball for the purpose of taking relief, for identification, or to inspect for damage. In this case, if you haven't stated any intent to lift it for the latter two reasons, then you have lifted it to take relief. At that point, you can't change your mind without penalty. That is why marking is not required.

[coralpro]

Again Bulls one last time.