Lift, Clean and Place...

[carolinagolfer]

Who decides when this can be used? and when can it be used? The company that I work for is having a tournament next month and we are trying to get some "kinks" ironed out.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by carolinagolfer

Who decides when this can be used? and when can it be used? The company that I work for is having a tournament next month and we are trying to get some "kinks" ironed out.

The only time I know it's allowed is during Winter Rules, but you should ask 4-Putt or Atticus. They know better than I do.

[GolfSavage]

It can be used anytime conditions dictate, like after a wet spell where the course is waterlogged. For normal play I believe the course can state that lift, clean and place is in effect, but for tournament play it must be chosen to be in place by the rules committee.

A neat little PDF explaining the LCP for tournaments (found here) had this to say:

The USGA does not endorse "winter rules" or "lift, clean and place" local rules and will not interpret them. They do recommend the following: "A ball lying through the green may, without penalty, be moved or may be lifted, cleaned and placed within a specific area (six inches, one clublength,etc.) of where it originally lay, but not nearer the hole and not in a hazard or on a putting green. A player may move or place their ball once and after the ball has been so moved or placed, it is in play." A breach of this Local Rule carries a two-stroke penalty.

Beware to those who find the choicest spot of grass to perch their ball on! Yes, it is legal but if the ball falls off its perch while you address it a one-stroke penalty will apply (Rule 18-2) and you must replace it. Failure to replace a ball that was at rest and moved by you is a breach of Rule 18 and a two-stroke penalty applies. The pit falls of the "preferred lie"!

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Diane

The only time I know it's allowed is during Winter Rules, but you should ask 4-Putt or Atticus. They know better than I do.

Do you watch golf on TV at all? Like this past tournament?

[Diane]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Do you watch golf on TV at all? Like this past tournament?

Nope - as little as possible.

[Darth Fader]

The club committee generally decide in this neck of the woods.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

It can be used anytime conditions dictate, like after a wet spell where the course is waterlogged. For normal play I believe the course can state that lift, clean and place is in effect, but for tournament play it must be chosen to be in place by the rules committee.

A neat little PDF explaining the LCP for tournaments (found here) had this to say:

I just took a glance at that site and there was a glairing error that popped right up. I wonder what else is questionable.

The site said:

As the committee we can adopt Local Rules for adverse conditions and here's a
description of how we'll handle the Lift, Clean and Place rule. There are specific
procedures you have to follow or penalty strokes will be involved. Rule 20-1 states:
"The position of the ball shall be marked before it is lifted under a Rule, which requires
it to be replaced." Please…have a tee in your pocket ready to mark your ball before
lifting it when following the Local Rule. Lifting your ball before marking its location
carries an immediate one-stroke penalty AND you must replace your ball and start over.

Lift, clean and place is not a rule that requires replacement of the ball and therefore failure to mark the ball does not incur a penalty under rule 20. The penalty is imposed directly by the local rule. Net result the same, but not the right path.

A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green [or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

[Diane]

Don't you also have to announce that you are going to lift your ball?

[Wazmankg]

When playing a casual round, the course is not likely to have a sign posted allowing lift, clean & place for that day... at least the ones I play don't. I use my own judgement. If it's soggy and I'm picking up mud frequently, I'll lift clean & place it, but only on those shots where I pick up some mud. That's probably not by the book but it's what I do.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Diane

Don't you also have to announce that you are going to lift your ball?

No.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

I just took a glance at that site and there was a glairing error that popped right up. I wonder what else is questionable.

The site said:

As the committee we can adopt Local Rules for adverse conditions and here's a
description of how we'll handle the Lift, Clean and Place rule. There are specific
procedures you have to follow or penalty strokes will be involved. Rule 20-1 states:
"The position of the ball shall be marked before it is lifted under a Rule, which requires
it to be replaced." Please…have a tee in your pocket ready to mark your ball before
lifting it when following the Local Rule. Lifting your ball before marking its location
carries an immediate one-stroke penalty AND you must replace your ball and start over.

Lift, clean and place is not a rule that requires replacement of the ball and therefore failure to mark the ball does not incur a penalty under rule 20. The penalty is imposed directly by the local rule. Net result the same, but not the right path.

A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green [or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole] may be lifted without penalty and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within [specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.] of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

I didn't intend for the linked document to be considered a final judgement, just a sample of local rules used and noted for the players. I should have made that clear. Though perhaps not perfect, I thought it a good example of how a local body would handle such things for tournaments, leaving no room for doubt about what is expected under the local rule. I've played courses where this local rule was in place, but the signs just said something like "Lift, clean, place allowed", which was open to all sorts of interpretation by the players.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

I didn't intend for the linked document to be considered a final judgement, just a sample of local rules used and noted for the players. I should have made that clear. Though perhaps not perfect, I thought it a good example of how a local body would handle such things for tournaments, leaving no room for doubt about what is expected under the local rule. I've played courses where this local rule was in place, but the signs just said something like "Lift, clean, place allowed", which was open to all sorts of interpretation by the players.

Understood, I didn't intend to be critical of you. But that site is an example of the pitfalls in trying to paraphrase the rules in an effort to make them more "understandable." It wasn't necessary in this case because the text of the approved local rule is clear on its face, and could lead to future confusion regarding the meaining of rule 20-1. It is an excellent example of the kind of critical reading of the rules is necessary to get them right.

Agreed, clearly something more than "LCP is in effect" is necessary, but in my view, simply quoting the local rule is sufficient.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Understood, I didn't intend to be critical of you. But that site is an example of the pitfalls in trying to paraphrase the rules in an effort to make them more "understandable." It wasn't necessary in this case because the text of the approved local rule is clear on its face, and could lead to future confusion regarding the meaining of rule 20-1. It is an excellent example of the kind of critical reading of the rules is necessary to get them right.

Agreed, clearly something more than "LCP is in effect" is necessary, but in my view, simply quoting the local rule is sufficient.

When my men's club uses the preferred lies local rule, we still require that the ball be marked, as you are required to place it as closely as possible to the original position, and not closer to the hole. If the spot isn't marked, who's to say that you kept to that requirement? How can you even be certain yourself?

[Bulls9999]

Fourputt, so now you are advocating 'marking the ball' when you don't have to, whereas in a prior thread on immovable obstructions you advocated you didn't have to mark (even though it's the most common sense thing to do, resulting in few to no procedural objections)?

Originally Posted by Fourputt

When my men's club uses the preferred lies local rule, we still require that the ball be marked, as you are required to place it as closely as possible to the original position, and not closer to the hole. If the spot isn't marked, who's to say that you kept to that requirement? How can you even be certain yourself?

[TwillDog]

As I interject, I'll preface by saying I'm only a casual golfer, and not in the least completely versed in the rules. That said, most of what I know is what I've seen or heard on television. Lift, clean and place while seemingly the same type of rule that requires marking to be legal, because in essence it is outside the rules, may not require the same marking of the ball to be done. It would also seem that since you are not trying to truly "move" or identify your ball, and all participants are allowed the same freedom, that announcing your intention would be unnecessary. But I'd assume that on tour, the players do in fact mark their ball, if for no other reason than to create a habit that would follow them in times when they DO need to mark and replace.
One of the key words that was brought up before was PLACE, as opposed to replace. Place doesn't indicate putting the ball back in the spot it originally occupied. In fact, considering often when these guidelines are in effect, there is a lot of standing water on the course and the idea is to give you the opportunity to put your ball in an place where you can make a fair swing at the ball, as opposed to trying to dig it out of a plugged lie in the mud. Place connotes being able to put the ball where you like it, within a certain distance and not nearer to the hole.
Again, these are just the musings of a hack, not intended to be a rule, just intended to advance the conversation.

[Bigvivec]

Rules or no rules, our course floods after heavy tropical storms during the rainy season with a good portion being completely underwater for a few hours before the water receeds...I play sometimes just after or while the water is still in the process of going down (talk about narrowed fairways!) and while I attempt to always play the ball down, if the ball hits the fairway and plugs with more than a third being under the surface of the fairway, we play a local lift clean and place rule...off the fairway, first of all good luck finding it, and if I do then it is a mud splash shot because lifting and placing when you miss the fairway seems too generous, but that's just me...my caddy shakes his head and keeps telling me that I am allowed to lift and place, but there ought to be a little pennance for missing the fairway, local rule or not...

[Fileygolfer]

The Rule states "replaced" but does not say in the exact same spot so if you pick it up off the ground you replace it on the ground.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

The Rule states "replaced" but does not say in the exact same spot so if you pick it up off the ground you replace it on the ground.

The recommnded Rule actually says "placed" not "replaced".

[Bulls9999]

Is this one of those rules where you have to interprete the 'intention' of the rule? I suppose they 'meant' replace (?) but perhaps used 'placed' to denote manual placement as opposed to dropping the ball? Someone write this into USGA, lol.

Originally Posted by JungleJ

The recommnded Rule actually says "placed" not "replaced".

[carolinagolfer]

Thanks for all of your help guys and gal. So it seems to be up to the tourny "officials" as to whether LCP rules are in effect. Just one more question.....should said "officials" declare LCP, should the officials declare as to how far away from the original spot one may replace their ball. Say a club length? Of course this would require marking one's ball before lifting.