Dropping coin on ball

[C-Tech]

On Saturday, one of the men in my foursome marked his ball with a quarter. He cleaned the ball and replaced it, picking up his ball mark. As he did so, he dropped the coin on the ball and caused it to move from its original position. He asked us what we thought the ruling was for this.

I told him that I thought I had seen a similar problem in a pro event and the player had to return his ball to its original position and assess himself a 1 stroke penalty for causing the ball to move. He replied that he thought I was wrong. I didn't argue the point because we didn't have anything on the line and he was a stranger to me.

I still think I am right. Please help me clarify this... Am I right?

[Texas Wedge]

I'm no rules guru, but I think you are right. He caused the ball to move from it's location, therefore he should replace the ball and take a penalty stroke. I'm sure we'll hear from the rules gurus in the morning on this one, though. Good question!

[Pistol]

Here's the answer to your question. Unfortunately for you, your buddy is correct.

20-3. Placing and Replacing

a. By Whom and Where

If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of placing or replacing the ball, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of placing or replacing the ball or removing the ball-marker. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a or 20-1.

If a ball to be replaced is placed other than on the spot from which it was lifted or moved and the error is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6, the player incurs the general penalty, loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play, for a breach of the applicable Rule.

[Bulls9999]

I would say NO PENALTY, as the lifting of the marker that fell on the ball and caused it to move was part of the 'process' of marking the ball, or completing that process. It's not the same as dropping your putter and it falls on the ball, which is not part of the process of marking the ball.

----------------------------------------------------------------
20-1. Lifting and Marking

A ball to be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his partner or another person authorized by the player. In any such case, the player is responsible for any breach of the Rules.
The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.
If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of lifting the ball under a Rule or marking its position, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of marking the position of or lifting the ball. Otherwise, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under this Rule or Rule 18-2a.
Exception: If a player incurs a penalty for failing to act in accordance with Rule 5-3 or 12-2, there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.
Note: The position of a ball to be lifted should be marked by placing a ball-marker, a small coin or other similar object immediately behind the ball. If the ball-marker interferes with the play, stance or stroke of another player, it should be placed one or more clubhead-lengths to one side.

[Fourputt]

Here's the answer.... It's a decision under Rule 20: Lifting, dropping and placing. I accented the pertinent section in bold font.

20-1/15 Meaning of “Directly Attributable” in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a

Q. What is meant by the phrase “directly attributable to the specific act” in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a?

A. In Rule 20-1 the phrase means the specific act of placing a ball-marker behind the ball, placing a club to the side of the ball, or lifting the ball such that the player’s hand, the placement of the ball-marker or the club, or the lifting of the ball causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

In Rule 20-3a the phrase means the specific act of placing or replacing a ball in front of a ball-marker, placing a club to the side of the ball-marker, or lifting the ball-marker such that the player’s hand, the placement of the ball or the club, or the lifting of the ball-marker causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

Under either Rule, any accidental movement of the ball or the ball-marker which occurs before or after this specific act, such as dropping the ball or ball-marker, regardless of the height from which it was dropped, is not considered to be “directly attributable” and would result in the player incurring a penalty stroke.

[Bulls9999]

Fourputt, I think you are wrong. This is just one more example of the dumb wording of the rules of golf when you need an interpretation of an obvious phrase.

Fourputt, if you read 20-1 or 20-3, it seems clear. Then the decision you pointed out, I agree, "it seems" the opposite of 20-1 and 20-3.

Now, read your bolded part real closely below, especially in red, I could argue that it is talking about 'before or after' the act of marking the ball. The question becomes, what is included in the 'act'...surely, the "act of marking or placing the ball" is the act of reaching down, marking, placing, and bending back up. I think what you have pointed out, is if you are just standing there, waiting, and drop the ball, or marker thereby moving the ball, then that is not 'directly attributed' to marking/placing the ball.....my reading thus coincides more with 20-1 and 20-3 making sense. Your interpretation puts 20-1 and 20-3 at odds with decision 20-1/15, making it an awkward question of which one is it?

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Here's the answer.... It's a decision under Rule 20: Lifting, dropping and placing. I accented the pertinent section in bold font.

20-1/15 Meaning of “Directly Attributable” in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a

Q. What is meant by the phrase “directly attributable to the specific act” in Rules 20-1 and 20-3a?

A. In Rule 20-1 the phrase means the specific act of placing a ball-marker behind the ball, placing a club to the side of the ball, or lifting the ball such that the player’s hand, the placement of the ball-marker or the club, or the lifting of the ball causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

In Rule 20-3a the phrase means the specific act of placing or replacing a ball in front of a ball-marker, placing a club to the side of the ball-marker, or lifting the ball-marker such that the player’s hand, the placement of the ball or the club, or the lifting of the ball-marker causes the ball or the ball-marker to move.

Under either Rule, any accidental movement of the ball or the ball-marker which occurs before or after this specific act, such as dropping the ball or ball-marker, regardless of the height from which it was dropped, is not considered to be “directly attributable” and would result in the player incurring a penalty stroke.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Fourputt, I think you are wrong. This is just one more example of the dumb wording of the rules of golf when you need an interpretation of an obvious phrase.

Fourputt, if you read 20-1 or 20-3, it seems clear. Then the decision you pointed out, I agree, "it seems" the opposite of 20-1 and 20-3.

Now, read your bolded part real closely below, especially in red, I could argue that it is talking about 'before or after' the act of marking the ball. The question becomes, what is included in the 'act'...surely, the "act of marking or placing the ball" is the act of reaching down, marking, placing, and bending back up. I think what you have pointed out, is if you are just standing there, waiting, and drop the ball, or marker thereby moving the ball, then that is not 'directly attributed' to marking/placing the ball.....my reading thus coincides more with 20-1 and 20-3 making sense. Your interpretation puts 20-1 and 20-3 at odds with decision 20-1/15, making it an awkward question of which one is it?

The specific act is placing the coin and lifting the ball, or replacing the ball and lifting the coin. Reaching down and bending back are part of the action, but not the specific act.

[Bulls9999]

Is that defined anywhere (where the 'specific act' stops or starts)? If not, then it's debatable...i.e., at what point do you separate the two...1-inch from the ground....6-inches, completing my return to uprite posture?. I guess USGA will have to make a decision on that.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

The specific act is placing the coin and lifting the ball, or replacing the ball and lifting the coin. Reaching down and bending back are part of the action, but not the specific act.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Is that defined anywhere (where the 'specific act' stops or starts)? If not, then it's debatable...i.e., at what point do you separate the two...1-inch from the ground....6-inches, completing my return to uprite posture?. I guess USGA will have to make a decision on that.

That IS what that decision is clarifying. Basically the decision says that it is NOT debatable. Dropping the coin from ANY height is NOT directly attributable to marking, lifting, or replacing. The wording in the decision is quite plain, "regardless of the height from which it was dropped". The point of the decision is to cover the golfer if he accidentally moves the ball when positioning the marker, or moves the marker when positioning the ball. Anytime you drop something on your ball, it is going to be a penalty, and in this case, you are dropping a piece of "equipment", no different than dropping a towel or a club and moving the ball or marker. If you use your putter to tap down the marker and it moves that IS still considered part of the act of marking, so no penalty. But dropping anything on the ball or marker is a breach of the rule.

Even if it is only dropped 6"... or 2", it is still a one stroke penalty under Rule 20 as long as the ball is replaced to it's original position. If the ball is not replaced then it is a 2 stroke penalty. Directly attributable means the specific act of placing the marker or ball. Once it has been lifted from its location by any distance then it no longer qualifies as directly attributable. If it has been lifted high enough to be dropped on the ball or marker, then it is no longer part of the "specific act". It may be part of the overall process, but it's not part of the actual act of marking.

[Bulls9999]

Nope... the decision you pointed out is pointing out that dropping marker/movement of ball.....before or after the act of marking the ball/placing the ball.....is 'not directly attributed' to this if it happens before or after and therefore subject to penalty. Atticus pointed out that the 'wording' specified 'specific act', which then begs the question....who is going to define 'specific act' and where bending over to mark the ball stops and specific act of marking the ball starts, and again completing the 'act'. The decision clearly refers to movement occuring BEFORE OR AFTER THIS ACT.

Under either Rule, any accidental movement of the ball or the ball-marker which occurs before or after this specific act, such as dropping the ball or ball-marker, regardless of the height from which it was dropped, is not considered to be “directly attributable” and would result in the player incurring a penalty stroke.

If the ball or marker was dropped "within the specific act" of marking/placing the ball, then it IS DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO SUCH. Again, the degree of movement that defines the 'specific act' defined needs clarification....obviously, if you are allowed to drop it, or the ball, that is 'directly attributable' to marking/placing the ball, it must be beyond the position of having hand on marker or ball, while either is touching the green....you can not drop something that is on the ground, it must be approaching it or leaving it, bending down or back up.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That IS what that decision is clarifying. Basically the decision says that it is NOT debatable. Dropping the coin from ANY height is NOT directly attributable to marking, lifting, or replacing. The wording in the decision is quite plain, "regardless of the height from which it was dropped". The point of the decision is to cover the golfer if he accidentally moves the ball when positioning the marker, or moves the marker when positioning the ball. Anytime you drop something on your ball, it is going to be a penalty, and in this case, you are dropping a piece of "equipment", no different than dropping a towel or a club and moving the ball or marker. If you use your putter to tap down the marker and it moves that IS still considered part of the act of marking, so no penalty. But dropping anything on the ball or marker is a breach of the rule.

Even if it is only dropped 6"... or 2", it is still a one stroke penalty under Rule 20 as long as the ball is replaced to it's original position. If the ball is not replaced then it is a 2 stroke penalty. Directly attributable means the specific act of placing the marker or ball. Once it has been lifted from its location by any distance then it no longer qualifies as directly attributable. If it has been lifted high enough to be dropped on the ball or marker, then it is no longer part of the "specific act". It may be part of the overall process, but it's not part of the actual act of marking.

[Fourputt]

Ok...YOU try it in front of a rules official and see what happens. I guarantee that you will be penalized for it, and I further guarantee that any appeal will be denied. This question was posed by the instructor in our on course session in the Rules Seminar I attended in March. He did exactly what you describe... marked the ball lifted it about a foot, then "accidentally' dropped it on the marker, which moved about 2 inches as a result. He then asked each of us us to make the ruling as we saw it. About half the group of 12 ruled it your way. The rest of us ruled for the penalty. He quoted the same decision as I just gave you and made essentially the same explanation. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm siding with the USGA Rules official.

[Bulls9999]

Fourputt, the way that decision reads, it depends on exactly what constitutes 'the specific act of marking/placing the ball'...even the decision says you are allowed accidental movement if it occurs within 'the specific act'. Then again, what completeness of motion constitutes 'the specific act' of marking/placing the ball....if it is merely when your hands on marker/ball are on the ground, then you can never 'accidentally drop it', which according to the decision you cited, you most certainly can....as long as it it 'within the specific act'. So he must have defined 'specific act' of marking the ball as being only 1-inch above the ground, either approaching or moving away from the ball/marker? So much is left to 'interpretation', I bet on these wordings, if you ask 10 rules guys, you may get several different interpretations, especially if they haven't yet defined exactly what constitutes 'specific act'.

20-1 allows for accidentaly dropping without penalty
20-3 allows for it.
Decision 20-1/15 allows for it as along is it is not 'before or after' the specific act....whatever the heck that is.

Hey, I'm just trying to be as 'anal' about the wording as both you and Attica have been with me .

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ok...YOU try it in front of a rules official and see what happens. I guarantee that you will be penalized for it, and I further guarantee that any appeal will be denied. This question was posed by the instructor in our on course session in the Rules Seminar I attended in March. He did exactly what you describe... marked the ball lifted it about a foot, then "accidentally' dropped it on the marker, which moved about 2 inches as a result. He then asked each of us us to make the ruling as we saw it. About half the group of 12 ruled it your way. The rest of us ruled for the penalty. He quoted the same decision as I just gave you and made essentially the same explanation. You can believe whatever you want, but I'm siding with the USGA Rules official.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Fourputt, the way that decision reads, it depends on exactly what constitutes 'the specific act of marking/placing the ball'...even the decision says you are allowed accidental movement if it occurs within 'the specific act'. Then again, what completeness of motion constitutes 'the specific act' of marking/placing the ball....if it is merely when your hands on marker/ball are on the ground, then you can never 'accidentally drop it', which according to the decision you cited, you most certainly can....as long as it it 'within the specific act'. So he must have defined 'specific act' of marking the ball as being only 1-inch above the ground, either approaching or moving away from the ball/marker? So much is left to 'interpretation', I bet on these wordings, if you ask 10 rules guys, you may get several different interpretations, especially if they haven't yet defined exactly what constitutes 'specific act'.

20-1 allows for accidentaly dropping without penalty
20-3 allows for it.
Decision 20-1/15 allows for it as along is it is not 'before or after' the specific act....whatever the heck that is.

Hey, I'm just trying to be as 'anal' about the wording as both you and Attica have been with me .

I've tried to explain what is meant by specific act. My explanation is exactly what you will get from the USGA. Since they are the ones who write the rules, their explanation is good enough for me. Specific act is the actual placing of the coin of ball, not moving toward or away from from the spot. If you are far enough away from that spot to be able to drop the marker or ball, then you are outside of the range of the USGA's usage of the phrase "specific act". If you bump the ball or marker as you place or lift the ball or marker, that is part of the act. That is all the decision is intended to allow, and thus that is all that it does allow.

By your argument, a person could without penalty still drop the marker as he tried to reattach it to or remove it from the doohickey on his cap. That is NOT part of the specific act of marking, it is simply putting the marker away or getting ready to use it. It is unreasonable to say that he incurs a penalty for that, and not for dropping it from only a couple of inches above the ball, which is simply an extension of preparing it for use.

[Bulls9999]

Please don't try to twist my words to try and make it look like you made a point. Please pay attention because you have a problem with comprehension and simply jump to what you want to say.

I did not say someone could be attaching the marker to their hat/glove and say it was part of the marking process. I said it is debatable to what extent movement towards or away from marking is still part of the process. Atticus offered it is limited to 'specific act of marking/placing the ball' to which I inquired that is nice, but it doesn't tell me what range of motion that is (i.e., is that limited to touching the marker and the ground at the same time?, or some short distance moving towards and leaving that act?). And from one of my original statements I was suggesting that if you were just standing there idley and dropped it and the ball moved, that obviously is 'not part of the specific act'.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've tried to explain what is meant by specific act. My explanation is exactly what you will get from the USGA. Since they are the ones who write the rules, their explanation is good enough for me. Specific act is the actual placing of the coin of ball, not moving toward or away from from the spot. If you are far enough away from that spot to be able to drop the marker or ball, then you are outside of the range of the USGA's usage of the phrase "specific act". If you bump the ball or marker as you place or lift the ball or marker, that is part of the act. That is all the decision is intended to allow, and thus that is all that it does allow.

By your argument, a person could without penalty still drop the marker as he tried to reattach it to or remove it from the doohickey on his cap. That is NOT part of the specific act of marking, it is simply putting the marker away or getting ready to use it. It is unreasonable to say that he incurs a penalty for that, and not for dropping it from only a couple of inches above the ball, which is simply an extension of preparing it for use.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Please don't try to twist my words to try and make it look like you made a point. Please pay attention because you have a problem with comprehension and simply jump to what you want to say.

I did not say someone could be attaching the marker to their hat/glove and say it was part of the marking process. I said it is debatable to what extent movement towards or away from marking is still part of the process. Atticus offered it is limited to 'specific act of marking/placing the ball' to which I inquired that is nice, but it doesn't tell me what range of motion that is (i.e., is that limited to touching the marker and the ground at the same time?, or some short distance moving towards and leaving that act?). And from one of my original statements I was suggesting that if you were just standing there idley and dropped it and the ball moved, that obviously is 'not part of the specific act'.

Ok, whatever. I'm not arguing the point any further.

[Fileygolfer]

So it seems that if you accidentally drop you Marker on the ball and it moves, its a shot penalty.
OK what happens if the ball doesn't move?

[GolfSavage]