Rulings and Forums

[Fileygolfer]

Having a section like this gives us golfers a chance to discuss the Rules.

The R&A try and trip people up on their Rules Web Site, heres one of their questions.

A PLAYERS BALL COMES TO REST IN A BUSH. HE DECLARES IT UNPLAYABLE AND DECIDES TO DROP A DIFFERENT BALL WITHIN TWO CLUB LENGTHS OF WHERE IT LAY, NOT NEARER THE HOLE.
WHAT IS THE RULING?

A. NO PENALTY
B. ONE STROKE PENALTY
C. TWO STROKE PENALTY FOR SUBSTITUTING A BALL IN PLAY.

[Bulls9999]

Hmmm....I suppose the obvious is going to be wrong, but at first glance, I would think it's for substituting a ball in play without it being defective or lost?

[JungleJ]

Well, he's entitled to declare the ball unplayable, and dropping within two club lengths is an available option. But there is a one stroke penalty for taking the relief.

There is no additional penalty for substituting the ball, he is expressly permitted this in the Rules.

So in answer to the R&A question, I think the answer is B, one stroke penalty.

[Bulls9999]

JungleJ, I didn't realize you could substitute on the 'unplayable', but guess you can (looked it up).

Just curious, but anyone know why they let you substitute a ball for an 'unplayable' lie? (an allowable vice for taking a stroke, lol?)

Originally Posted by JungleJ

Well, he's entitled to declare the ball unplayable, and dropping within two club lengths is an available option. But there is a one stroke penalty for taking the relief.

There is no additional penalty for substituting the ball, he is expressly permitted this in the Rules.

So in answer to the R&A question, I think the answer is B, one stroke penalty.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

JungleJ, I didn't realize you could substitute on the 'unplayable', but guess you can (looked it up).

Just curious, but anyone know why they let you substitute a ball for an 'unplayable' lie? (an allowable vice for taking a stroke, lol?)

Because unplayable could also possibly be unobtainable if it were in a thicket of thorns or something ?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Because unplayable could also possibly be unobtainable if it were in a thicket of thorns or something ?

A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. Rule 15-2.

This is one reason the distinction between "a" ball and "the" ball is important.

[Bulls9999]

I understand the rules allow you to, and for many rules it is simply that 'that's what the rules state' (even if there is no logic).

But if a ball is not damaged, why would you (rather, USGA/RA) give allowance to substitute it out with another if it is readily available to you (understandable, the unplayable request may be because it is unreachable, but often times it is).

To me, the rule would be more reasonable if it said 'if unreachable, then substitution would be allowable'. If it was reachable, then like any ball in play, you would have to show evidence of damage to substitute another, and to me that would be a more logical approach.....unless there's something that I'm not seeing here. Feel free to add.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the play of a hole. Rule 15-2.

This is one reason the distinction between "a" ball and "the" ball is important.

[Bulls9999]

Waz.... if it was unobtainable, or unidentifiable because you couldn't get close enough to identify it.... wouldn't that be 'a lost ball'?

In one of my son's tournaments, there was a (hey, this is Oklahoma) fenced area surrounding an oil well in the middle of the golf course (squeezed between two holes, off to the side of one green). My son's ball went into the middle of this fenced compound (about 80x80 feet, barbed wire top of the chainlink fence).

My son, rules official, players, and several parents (who often help locate balls) lined up at the fence and peered in. My son said "I think I see it, over there....about 20 feet into the compound." The rules guy said "but there's 6, 7, 8 balls in there....how can you definitively identify it is yours?" (maybe if we had binoculars, lol). "if you can't identify it....oh, by the way, you have 45 seconds left on the clock....then it will be considered a 'lost ball'". The rules guy said "30 seconds left".....then several of us pulled the bottom of the chain link fence high enough so he could crawl under....retrieve the ball and come back out"....the rules guy said....just in time...5 sec left.... now you can declare it as unplayable" , with which he took his stroke penalty, 2 club-length drop from the edge of the fenced compound (local rule I guess).... and chipped it onto the green and roled into the hole !

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Because unplayable could also possibly be unobtainable if it were in a thicket of thorns or something ?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Waz.... if it was unobtainable, or unidentifiable because you couldn't get close enough to identify it.... wouldn't that be 'a lost ball'?

In one of my son's tournaments, there was a (hey, this is Oklahoma) fenced area surrounding an oil well in the middle of the golf course (squeezed between two holes, off to the side of one green). My son's ball went into the middle of this fenced compound (about 80x80 feet, barbed wire top of the chainlink fence).

My son, rules official, players, and several parents (who often help locate balls) lined up at the fence and peered in. My son said "I think I see it, over there....about 20 feet into the compound." The rules guy said "but there's 6, 7, 8 balls in there....how can you definitively identify it is yours?" (maybe if we had binoculars, lol). "if you can't identify it....oh, by the way, you have 45 seconds left on the clock....then it will be considered a 'lost ball'". The rules guy said "30 seconds left".....then several of us pulled the bottom of the chain link fence high enough so he could crawl under....retrieve the ball and come back out"....the rules guy said....just in time...5 sec left.... now you can declare it as unplayable" , with which he took his stroke penalty, 2 club-length drop from the edge of the fenced compound (local rule I guess).... and chipped it onto the green and roled into the hole !

I would have said the ball was lost in an immovable obstruction and allowed free relief under rule 24-3(b). (Shades of Tiger at Firestone )

[Bulls9999]

Makes a good point about knowing the rules so you can use them to your advantage .

Was that when it bounced off the roof into the delivery guys' golf cart....and 10 min later he realized and coughed up the ball....well beyond the 5 min timeline?

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

I would have said the ball was lost in an immovable obstruction and allowed free relief under rule 24-3(b). (Shades of Tiger at Firestone )

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Makes a good point about knowing the rules so you can use them to your advantage .

Was that when it bounced off the roof into the delivery guys' golf cart....and 10 min later he realized and coughed up the ball....well beyond the 5 min timeline?

Are you referring to the 2006 World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational when Tiger hit a 9-iron over 215 yards (), bounced off the cart path and onto/over the clubhouse roof that wasn't OB for some reason? They determined it had been affected by an outside agency (guy in cart) before the 5-minute time limit was up, then began figuring out point of relief, etc. due to temporary immovable obstruction rule. Here's an excerpt from an article where the rules offical explains what happened:

PGA TOUR Rules Official Dillard Pruitt had the task of sorting through the conflicting information to make a determination on how Woods should proceed. Another rules official, Mike Shea, was nearby assisting Woods' playing partner, Paul McGinley, who had also hit the ball over the grandstand. Shea immediately started a stopwatch.

Pruitt walked through the clubhouse and talked to a security guard who had seen a young man pick up a ball that had landed in his cart, put it in the drink holder and drive off. He had yelled at the guard and asked him why he was throwing balls at him.

The security guard and a man unloading a truck both showed Pruitt where the cart was when the ball landed in it. Using their information as reasonable evidence, he then began to act under the temporary immovable obstruction rule to determine a drop and distance for Woods. The clubhouse area is not out of bounds.

"That's when I decided the ball was gone, and we're not going to be able to find that ball, (and) that Tiger was going to be able to put another ball in play," Pruitt said. A short time later, Shea radioed Pruitt to tell him the five minutes allotted to locate a lost ball were up but the determination had already been made.

A range finder was used to help determine the distance between where Woods' ball was picked up and the pin. Pruitt said the distance was 97 yards. Woods said he worked with a number of 84.

Then Woods was allowed a free drop to the right of the green to get line of sight relief from the grandstands. Another drop was necessary when the first landed on the cart path. The entire process took just over 30 minutes, and the group behind played through.

[Bulls9999]

Yea, that's the one. I wonder if it was anyone else, would they have even bothered?

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

Are you referring to the 2006 World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational when Tiger hit a 9-iron over 215 yards (), bounced off the cart path and onto/over the clubhouse roof that wasn't OB for some reason? They determined it had been affected by an outside agency (guy in cart) before the 5-minute time limit was up, then began figuring out point of relief, etc. due to temporary immovable obstruction rule. Here's an excerpt from an article where the rules offical explains what happened:

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

JungleJ, I didn't realize you could substitute on the 'unplayable', but guess you can (looked it up).

Just curious, but anyone know why they let you substitute a ball for an 'unplayable' lie? (an allowable vice for taking a stroke, lol?)

However, don't try to substitute when taking relief from an obstruction... there the substitution is not allowed.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Waz.... if it was unobtainable, or unidentifiable because you couldn't get close enough to identify it.... wouldn't that be 'a lost ball'?

Unobtainable and unidentifiable are 2 different circumstances. From a clublength or 2 you might easily be able to identify it or even touch it with something, yet still be unable to easily retrieve it. If he can't get within 2 clublengths to identify it he's likely headed back to where he hit it from plus a stroke anyway.

[Bulls9999]

If memory serves me correctly....isn't that related to the image I have of Faldo climbing a tree at a PGA tournament at Riviera CC, or somewhere out in California? ....right hand side of the fairway.....some scraggly fir tree? To identify his ball wedged up in the branches?

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Unobtainable and unidentifiable are 2 different circumstances. From a clublength or 2 you might easily be able to identify it or even touch it with something, yet still be unable to easily retrieve it. If he can't get within 2 clublengths to identify it he's likely headed back to where he hit it from plus a stroke anyway.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Having a section like this gives us golfers a chance to discuss the Rules.

The R&A try and trip people up on their Rules Web Site, heres one of their questions.

A PLAYERS BALL COMES TO REST IN A BUSH. HE DECLARES IT UNPLAYABLE AND DECIDES TO DROP A DIFFERENT BALL WITHIN TWO CLUB LENGTHS OF WHERE IT LAY, NOT NEARER THE HOLE.
WHAT IS THE RULING?

A. NO PENALTY
B. ONE STROKE PENALTY
C. TWO STROKE PENALTY FOR SUBSTITUTING A BALL IN PLAY.

OK, the correct answer is B.
But we began discussing a Substituted ball.

The big thing missing from the question is the mention of the shot penalty for an unplayable lie, so answer B is correct.
Simple, really.
It is when we start looking for something that is not there, that we miss the obvious.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

However, don't try to substitute when taking relief from an obstruction... there the substitution is not allowed.

Although Rule 24-1 does make SOME allowance:
"Note: If a ball to be dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted" Rule 24-2 has a similar provision.

This is just a guess, but I wonder if the substitution is allowed for unplayable because one is taking a penalty stroke, whereas relief from an obstruction is without penalty?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by JungleJ

Although Rule 24-1 does make SOME allowance:
"Note: If a ball to be dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted" Rule 24-2 has a similar provision.

I knew this would be brought up, but I was too lazy to note it in my earlier post. In most cases, it's fairly rare that a ball will actually be lost where it is known that it is in the obstruction (and not just lost outside of it), so that substitution option is not often invoked under this rule. You will see it more often in the case of relief from a dangerous situation (i.e. your ball lands next to an alligator or rattlesnake), or when your ball is moved by an outside agency (dog or juvenile delinquent runs off with ball).

Originally Posted by JungleJ

This is just a guess, but I wonder if the substitution is allowed for unplayable because one is taking a penalty stroke, whereas relief from an obstruction is without penalty?

Sometimes the rules do give a break to a player taking a penalty over what they give for free relief. In particular is the 2 clublengths when taking a penalty drop (lateral water hazard, unplayable lie) as opposed to 1 clublength for relief from an obstruction or abnormal ground condition.