Windy putting conditions.....leave marker down?

[Bulls9999]

Watching all the putting strategy to protect from the ball moving after having grounding the putter (i.e., re-mark and don't ground).

What about leaving the marker to the side of the ball while putting? Does that help any? But if the ball moves after grounding the putter, regardless of if it's marked, doesn't it still count as an extra shot? (i..e, moving before the putter is grounded counts as part of the previous shot and no extra strokes, right?).

[Fourputt]

In order to cancel the address you have to mark, lift and replace the ball. By doing that you have temporarily taken the ball out of play, so the fact that you had previously addressed it has no bearing. Just marking it has no effect on the penalty.

The other option you have is not to ground the club. In that case you haven't addressed the ball, so any movement caused by the wind or gravity is just fate, and no penalty is assessed.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Watching all the putting strategy to protect from the ball moving after having grounding the putter (i.e., re-mark and don't ground).

What about leaving the marker to the side of the ball while putting? Does that help any? But if the ball moves after grounding the putter, regardless of if it's marked, doesn't it still count as an extra shot? (i..e, moving before the putter is grounded counts as part of the previous shot and no extra strokes, right?).

you mean address.grounding is only half of it,

[Fileygolfer]

From watching The Open and seeing what a lot of players did, the R&A may have had a special Local Rule in place.
I saw a number of players address their ball on the green then walk away without marking it. So if the ball moved its a penalty
Would they take this risk?
I doubt it.
The R&A have a Rules Official with every Match at The Open so it would be easy to add a Local Rule "At any other time, except during the act of addressing the ball, if the ball is seen to be moved by the wind and not by the action of a player, no penalty will be incurred".

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

From watching The Open and seeing what a lot of players did, the R&A may have had a special Local Rule in place.
I saw a number of players address their ball on the green then walk away without marking it. So if the ball moved its a penalty
Would they take this risk?
I doubt it.
The R&A have a Rules Official with every Match at The Open so it would be easy to add a Local Rule "At any other time, except during the act of addressing the ball, if the ball is seen to be moved by the wind and not by the action of a player, no penalty will be incurred".

but they didn't. and it wouldn't be easy. local rules must conform to the specimen lrs. there is no such specimen.

the remedy is to suspend play which they have done before

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

but they didn't. and it wouldn't be easy. local rules must conform to the specimen lrs. there is no such specimen.

the remedy is to suspend play which they have done before

Yes, a proposed new local rule must be submitted to the governing body (in this case the R&A) for approval before it can be used. You can't just create a LR on the fly, as it must be examined and found to pass the test of conforming to the spirit of the affected rule. Since this isn't the first time that extreme wind has affected a tournament in Scotland, one would have to believe that such a proposal has long since been considered and rejected as being too intrusive to the spirit of the rule. It may be because there is an easy way to avoid the penalty by not grounding your club that the LR has not been considered.

[Fileygolfer]

And WHO runs The Open?
The R&A.

An Open Championship is televised to all corners of the world and the R&A will want it to finish on time. So to suspend play for Wind for a long time is the last option.

And Atticus, how are you so sure it wasn't used during The Open?

[Bulls9999]

Filey, that is exactly what I got from watching and listening to the discussions this weekend. They were talking about why it was so hard this week....because of the wind, players were not 'grounding their putter' for fear of the ball moving before they putted, then they progressed to that is what's making it hard on putting, that were taken away from their 'normal routine' and have to put with the putter starting up in the air....and anything other than the normal routine takes you out of your comfort putting stroke.

I know 4putt and Atticus feel its a combination of "address and grounding the putter", but from that, I gather that 'addressing the ball' was not the issue, it was only if you grounded your putter. So I think they dispensed with the "addressing the ball" issue. That was a major discussion that lasted about 5 min, not sure if it was on the Golf Channel or the TV broadcast, but several commentators went on at length about that, I think Brandel Chamblee too.

Unless 4putt/Atticus are saying that you need both "Addressing" and "grounding" to get the penalty, and you can address without grounding to free you from penalty?

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

From watching The Open and seeing what a lot of players did, the R&A may have had a special Local Rule in place.
I saw a number of players address their ball on the green then walk away without marking it. So if the ball moved its a penalty
Would they take this risk?
I doubt it.
The R&A have a Rules Official with every Match at The Open so it would be easy to add a Local Rule "At any other time, except during the act of addressing the ball, if the ball is seen to be moved by the wind and not by the action of a player, no penalty will be incurred".

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Filey, that is exactly what I got from watching and listening to the discussions this weekend. They were talking about why it was so hard this week....because of the wind, players were not 'grounding their putter' for fear of the ball moving before they putted, then they progressed to that is what's making it hard on putting, that were taken away from their 'normal routine' and have to put with the putter starting up in the air....and anything other than the normal routine takes you out of your comfort putting stroke.

I know 4putt and Atticus feel its a combination of "address and grounding the putter", but from that, I gather that 'addressing the ball' was not the issue, it was only if you grounded your putter. So I think they dispensed with the "addressing the ball" issue. That was a major discussion that lasted about 5 min, not sure if it was on the Golf Channel or the TV broadcast, but several commentators went on at length about that, I think Brandel Chamblee too.

Unless 4putt/Atticus are saying that you need both "Addressing" and "grounding" to get the penalty, and you can address without grounding to free you from penalty?

Read the definition in the Rules of golf for "addressing the ball" and "stance". Too many people equate stance with address, and they are 2 different things.

And getting your Rules information from a discussion between announcers on the the Golf Channel is pretty much a guarantee that you will rarely hear the correct answer.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

And WHO runs The Open?
The R&A.

An Open Championship is televised to all corners of the world and the R&A will want it to finish on time. So to suspend play for Wind for a long time is the last option.

And Atticus, how are you so sure it wasn't used during The Open?

Any LR proposal still has to be formally presented to Rules Committee prior to the event being played. You still don't just create them willy-nilly.

And I stand by my earlier comment that they have to have discussed and rejected such a LR long since. This is NOT the first time such a discussion has been sparked by windy conditions at a tournament, and the continuing omission of any such Rule tells me that we shouldn't expect that to change any time soon.

I could be wrong... they might propose such a LR tomorrow... but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

[Fileygolfer]

The BBC had one of the Top R&A Rules Officials in "The Box" for most of the Championship. So I would't say the BBC were incorrect in their Rulings.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

From watching The Open and seeing what a lot of players did, the R&A may have had a special Local Rule in place.
I saw a number of players address their ball on the green then walk away without marking it. So if the ball moved its a penalty
Would they take this risk?
I doubt it.
The R&A have a Rules Official with every Match at The Open so it would be easy to add a Local Rule "At any other time, except during the act of addressing the ball, if the ball is seen to be moved by the wind and not by the action of a player, no penalty will be incurred".

They didn't, though. I saw an official interviewed on the prospect of halting play. That was apparently the only option considered. Your suggestion would make way too much sense, Fileygolfer. I don't see how the spirit of the rule or the game would've been violated by doing as you suggest. It was plainly obvious to all that the wind was causing these problems. It's not as if there was the occasional gust and the cause of balls moving was in doubt. This was The Open. There were important and IMO overriding considerations behind the desire to get play in in the time frame alloted and the wind was certainly causing enough hardship without them having to worry about a penalty stroke every time they stepped up to a putt.

[Bulls9999]

All I know is what I saw and heard. People were not 'grounding their putter' for fear the ball would move afterwards. Those that were quite at address, would move away and back off. Back off for what purpose? Those that grounded their putter would mark/pickup/replace the ball...were you not watching the same tournament I was watching? if the ball was to move, are you going to suggest they would be penalized? if so, then why back off? They were obviously avoiding 'grounding the putter' as was discussed by the analysts who I would think are in constant touch with tournament officials as they are directly on the premises.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Read the definition in the Rules of golf for "addressing the ball" and "stance". Too many people equate stance with address, and they are 2 different things.

And getting your Rules information from a discussion between announcers on the the Golf Channel is pretty much a guarantee that you will rarely hear the correct answer.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

All I know is what I saw and heard. People were not 'grounding their putter' for fear the ball would move afterwards. Those that were quite at address, would move away and back off. Back off for what purpose? Those that grounded their putter would mark/pickup/replace the ball...were you not watching the same tournament I was watching? if the ball was to move, are you going to suggest they would be penalized? if so, then why back off? They were obviously avoiding 'grounding the putter' as was discussed by the analysts who I would think are in constant touch with tournament officials as they are directly on the premises.

I'm just clarifying the terminology, not arguing right or wrong. I saw very little of the Open, as I was playing in a 2 day tournament myself this weekend, and I had other things to do on Friday as well. I've rarely known TV announcers to get Rules questions right regardless of the resources available to them.

Lacking an approved local rule there is really nothing more that the committee could have done but to suspend play if the conditions became unplayable.

[Bulls9999]

I believe that is why they utilize a number of ex-PGA players (Brandel Chamblee, David Nobilee, Ted Tryba, Andrew Magee) who know what questions/issues/rules need explaining and who to go to at the onsite tournament to get answers (Chamblee was at the Open, often seen hitting shots afterwards to show how difficult a shot was that was pulled off earlier in the day)...seen this done before when they had questions regarding rules, they would come back having asked a rules USGA guy for clarification....so I don't think they just go blind making stuff up.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm just clarifying the terminology, not arguing right or wrong. I saw very little of the Open, as I was playing in a 2 day tournament myself this weekend, and I had other things to do on Friday as well. I've rarely known TV announcers to get Rules questions right regardless of the resources available to them.

Lacking an approved local rule there is really nothing more that the committee could have done but to suspend play if the conditions became unplayable.

[Bulls9999]

OK,

Addressing the ball = taking a stance + grounding the putter.

DEFINITIONS
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club


Many of the players were taking their stance, but not grounding the club, therefore, no penalty if the ball moved and they could back off all they wanted.

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I believe that is why they utilize a number of ex-PGA players (Brandel Chamblee, David Nobilee, Ted Tryba, Andrew Magee) who know what questions/issues/rules need explaining and who to go to at the onsite tournament to get answers (Chamblee was at the Open, often seen hitting shots afterwards to show how difficult a shot was that was pulled off earlier in the day)...seen this done before when they had questions regarding rules, they would come back having asked a rules USGA guy for clarification....so I don't think they just go blind making stuff up.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

I believe that is why they utilize a number of ex-PGA players (Brandel Chamblee, David Nobilee, Ted Tryba, Andrew Magee) who know what questions/issues/rules need explaining and who to go to at the onsite tournament to get answers (Chamblee was at the Open, often seen hitting shots afterwards to show how difficult a shot was that was pulled off earlier in the day)...seen this done before when they had questions regarding rules, they would come back having asked a rules USGA guy for clarification....so I don't think they just go blind making stuff up.

I"m not talking about "hitting shots". I'm talking about Rules knowledge, and a lot of pros seem to have as many misconceptions about what the rules are and how to apply them as most amateurs do. Even Rules officials don't know it all. They all carry radios and confer often on difficult situations before making a ruling that could affect the outcome of the tournament. Almost weekly the booth announcers will make a blunder when talking about the rules, so I would never take anything they said without either verification by researching it myself, personal knowledge of its correctness. Half of the Rules discussions online are started by either something an announcer said in error, or by the posting individual's personal misconception of a Rule. I'm just suggesting that you make sure they KNOW what they are talking about before you accept it at face value. Ken Venturi ended up with mud on his face after the Tiger boulder incident several years ago, yet he "thought" he was absolutely correct in his protest of the actions of Tiger's gallery.

You are far better off to be a student of the Rules, and learn how and where to find the answers yourself, than you are to depend on TV personalities to educate you. I post regularly in these rules threads, but most of the time before I post, I look up the appropriate rule so that when I start typing, I'm usually 100% certain that what I'm saying is correct. When appropriate I copy and paste my answer directly from the Rules of Golf on the USGA website.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

OK,

Addressing the ball = taking a stance + grounding the putter.

DEFINITIONS
A player has "addressed the ball" when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club


Many of the players were taking their stance, but not grounding the club, therefore, no penalty if the ball moved and they could back off all they wanted.

We then go down the avenue of "What constitutes grounding the club, is it touching the ground anywhere or just behind the ball?