Junior golf mishaps - abandoned provisional ball?

[Bulls9999]

Event with a boy in my son's group in a recent tournament:

On a par-5, a boy is hitting his 3rd shot out of a fairway bunker...sails the green and lands in some chest-high stickly brush 20-feet behind the green.

(parents are not supposed to give instruction or even talk to the boys except for 'good shot', 'nice putt', etc).

There is red paint along the left edge of fairway and left of the green to the cartpath. No paint along the brush all along the right side of fairway or behind the cartpath behind the green.

Ball is not found.

Questions arise from the boy....is that native grass? (because it looked more stickly bushes rather than 'grass') as the local tournament rule is that native grass be considered a lateral hazard (there's no such thing though as a 'lateral hazard', right?....only a 'lateral water hazard'....but anyway)....if lateral, he can drop where it went in, if not he must go back to spot of original shot (in the bunker).

My son and another boy offer up the routine suggestion often given in these situations....play 2 balls and ask when they get back in as to which should be used.

The boy proceeded to drop from the appropriate club length where the ball went into the brush.....hits his chip fat and lands in the grass bunker between that spot and the green (laying 5). Then, he picks up several clubs and goes back to the bunker, drops a ball, hits out, hits onto the green, 2-putts for an 8. As he goes by the ball in the grass bunker, he picks that up.

I was puzzled by that action. Another parent asks me "can he abandon that original dropped ball that was struck and laying in the grass? because if the provision is that he could have played the ball out of there as a lateral hazard, then that should have been the place he should have played from".

I interjected that I think you can chose which rule to use....since they didn't find the ball, it's also a lost ball. But what perplexed me was that when he dropped the ball (shoulder high, official drop) and pitched it, but didn't reach the green.... he put a ball in play that was abandoned.

Needless to say, the officials said, yes that is considered native grass (lateral area), but no one brought up the issue about the abandoned ball. I started to inquire about "what if someone drops a ball, hits it, and abandons it.....", but felt funny and didn't was to be perceived as the wicked parent who tried to get another parent's child penalized. As I've told my son, it's up to you as a player to know the rules so you "fight your 'rules battles' through the appropriate channels available to you".

The boy ended up finishing in the top 5 along with my son, a few strokes ahead of him.

How should/could this have actually played out? The boy signed and handed in his score card.

I've mentioned to my son, it's polite to indicate to someone, when possible, that you may not feel they are not doing the 'correct thing'.... in otherwards, give advance notice and allow the chance (when possible) for someone to 'do the correct thing', correct their decision, or play 2 balls to eliminate chance of error. Given that someone still doesn't do what he feels is correct, he can politely say, I really disagree with that, I hope you don't mind if I bring it up when we get in?" Not to make controversy, but also not to surprise someone once they get back in and you are there bringing up an issue? (the flip side is, that may 'bug' the person for the rest of the round and you don't want to do that).

The best way is to play 2 balls and you have yourself covered, imo.

[Ty_Webb]

I'd say that sounds like he was wrong. By playing the two balls, he's saying if it's native grass and I get the drop then the score with the dropped ball counts and if it's not, then the score with the ball played from back in the bunker counts. So his score that counted should have been the one that he dropped by the native grass. Since he picked that up and didn't correct his mistake before he played the following hole, I'm pretty sure that would be a DQ. Playing two balls doesn't mean that if you get a better score from the worse position you can just use that one.

[HackBlack]

I agree with Ty. The boy dropped to balls and played the one with a better outcome. That is not allowed. He should've holed out both ball, explained what happend, to the rules official. Then it would be determined what provisional was the correct one and taken that score.

Probably should've been a DQ if scorecard was already signed. Or, a 2 or 4 stroke penalty for illegal drop, playing incorrect ball, etc.

[Fourputt]

First: Did he declare his intention to use Rule 3-3 before dropping and playing the first ball? Did he state which ball he wanted to use for score? If so, and if he then abandons one of the balls, then he must finish with the chosen ball if it is played correctly under the rules. Since that was played correctly under one of the options allowed under Rule 26 for a lateral water hazard ( I won't go into that very suspect local rule ), that ball was played legally and can count if it was the ball selected to score with. But, since both balls were played under a correct procedure, if the first ball was the one selected then the player should be disqualified for not holing out with the ball in play.

However, if he did not declare his intention to proceed under Rule 3-3 before he played the first ball, then that was the ball in play, the second ball was a wrong ball, and he should have been penalized appropriately, 2 strokes for the wrong ball and disqualification for not correcting his mistake by going back and finishing the hole with the first ball.

In either case, he should have been disqualified for not finishing with the first ball if that was the ball selected, or if no ball was selected. The only way that his play can be correct is if the second ball was the one selected to use for score prior to playing either ball.

[atticusfinch]

P.S. a second ball under 3-3 is not a provisional ball.

[Fourputt]

One other comment, the first ball was NOT a provisional ball. A provisional ball has to be played from the original spot before the player goes forward to search. Once the player goes forward from the area where the original ball was played (with the intention of searching), he has forfeited the opportunity to play a provisional ball.

In any case the first ball this player hit was not a provisional as it was hit from a different place than the original.

[Bulls9999]

Maybe I didn't make this part as clear...the matter of whether two balls should have been used is not the issue....the tournament directors understand that it's not possible to get a rules official to every spot on the course, so in lieu of not being able to respond with a rules official, they suggest to the kids when they don't know which way to proceed, to play out the hole with 2 balls (i.e., in this instance, one dropped near the bushes and another dropped back in the bunker) and then inquire with a rules official at the scoring table when they finish, before they hand in their scorecard and they'll let them know what the ruling is so the kid could use the appropriate ball for the score on the hole.

[Bulls9999]

OK, sorry....I called it a 'provisional' ball.... I guess it's the "Play 2-Ball Rule when in Doubt"

Originally Posted by Fourputt

One other comment, the first ball was NOT a provisional ball. A provisional ball has to be played from the original spot before the player goes forward to search. Once the player goes forward from the area where the original ball was played (with the intention of searching), he has forfeited the opportunity to play a provisional ball.

In any case the first ball this player hit was not a provisional as it was hit from a different place than the original.

[Bulls9999]

Rule 3-3


3-3. Doubt as to Procedure
a. Procedure
In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.
After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, the competitor must announce to his marker or a fellow- competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit.
The competitor must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified.
Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.
b. Determination of Score for Hole

• (i) If the ball that the competitor selected in advance to count has been played in accordance with the Rules, the score with that ball is the competitor’s score for the hole. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.
• (ii) If the competitor fails to announce in advance his decision to complete the hole with two balls, or which ball he wishes to count, the score with the original ball counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. If the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the first ball put into play counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.

Note 1: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 3-3, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with the ball ruled not to count and penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded. Note 2: A second ball played under Rule 3-3 is not a provisional ball under Rule 27-2.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Maybe I didn't make this part as clear...the matter of whether two balls should have been used is not the issue....the tournament directors understand that it's not possible to get a rules official to every spot on the course, so in lieu of not being able to respond with a rules official, they suggest to the kids when they don't know which way to proceed, to play out the hole with 2 balls (i.e., in this instance, one dropped near the bushes and another dropped back in the bunker) and then inquire with a rules official at the scoring table when they finish, before they hand in their scorecard and they'll let them know what the ruling is so the kid could use the appropriate ball for the score on the hole.

I still have to ask if the procedure was followed. That is critical to the resolution of the potential penalty situation.

If the player did not declare his intentions to his opponent, then the first ball was the ball in play and the second ball was a wrong ball. If the player finished the hole with the wrong ball and did not correct his mistake, it a disqualification penalty.

If he declared his intention to his competitor, then the resolution depends on which ball he chose to use for score. If he didn't specify a particular ball, then the first ball was again the ball in play, and by not holing out with that ball he again should be disqualified. If he specified the first ball as the ball to count, then it's the same result... he had to finish the hole with that ball or he is disqualified.

The only way that he doesn't incur any additional penalty is if he declared the second ball to be the ball he would score with if his play with it was allowed under the rules.

If the committee abbreviated any of the required procedure then they not only overstepped their authority under the rules, they have also succeeded in teaching these kids to play in a manner which will certainly get them penalized the first time they play in a tournament which is really conducted under by the Rules of Golf. If that is the case, they have no business running such a tournament. They are already on very shaky ground the that "lateral hazard" ruling. There is no reason I can think of why these kids shouldn't learn it correctly right from the start.

[Bulls9999]

I don't think I'm following you, and perhaps you not following me.

There is no way to declare which ball to count until he gets back to the clubhouse to inquire whether the stickly bushes behind that green falls under the 'play ball lost in native grass as lateral hazard' ruling because of 100 players in the tournament on a public course with paying customers bringing up the rear. Once he finds that out, then he can determine which ball he must use, as is often the case with the "play 2 balls when in doubt" clause. But the first ball he dropped, and further hit, he abandoned and never played out. I believe that is the main error, no? I fault the rules guy for hearing something funky happened and never inquried further to feret out what happened. I've let my feelings known to the tournament director, who invariably has DQ'd about 1 kid/tournament for one reason or another.

I told my son....who was also in this last group....that you should have said
a) at the time it occured on the course, that you strongly felt that wasn't right (to pick up a ball in play), and,
b) he should have brought it up at the scorer's table that "I would like some clarification from a rules official at what happened on hole #14 before so-and-so signs/hands in their score card". That allows him to contest a possible problem with dignity and not waiting to bait another player by only bringing it up after he hands in his card. I said there's nothing wrong in doing it this way, diplomatically, unless you like handing out free strokes to people who should otherwise be penalized for the wrong decision.

The way it played out, nothing was ever made of it, and the boy took 2nd place.

OK, now I see the point you're making => "...the competitor must announce to his marker or a fellow- competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit."

=> Well, he didn't do that....lol, oops, a big oops (especially when the first ball he dropped and abandoned would have been allowed because they did say that tall brush was considered native grass (ball lost in it to be played as lateral hazard for a drop).

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I still have to ask if the procedure was followed. That is critical to the resolution of the potential penalty situation.

If the player did not declare his intentions to his opponent, then the first ball was the ball in play and the second ball was a wrong ball. If the player finished the hole with the wrong ball and did not correct his mistake, it a disqualification penalty.

If he declared his intention to his competitor, then the resolution depends on which ball he chose to use for score. If he didn't specify a particular ball, then the first ball was again the ball in play, and by not holing out with that ball he again should be disqualified. If he specified the first ball as the ball to count, then it's the same result... he had to finish the hole with that ball or he is disqualified.

The only way that he doesn't incur any additional penalty is if he declared the second ball to be the ball he would score with if his play with it was allowed under the rules.

If the committee abbreviated any of the required procedure then they not only overstepped their authority under the rules, they have also succeeded in teaching these kids to play in a manner which will certainly get them penalized the first time they play in a tournament which is really conducted under by the Rules of Golf. If that is the case, they have no business running such a tournament. They are already on very shaky ground the that "lateral hazard" ruling. There is no reason I can think of why these kids shouldn't learn it correctly right from the start.

[Fourputt]

You don't seem to understand the way the Rule 3-3 works. You DO have to declare which ball you wish to score with, and you MUST finish the hole with that ball, and you should finish with both balls. You still mark your card with the score from both balls, and if the one you selected was played correctly under the pertinent Rule, then your score is the one made with that ball. If that ball was not played in accordance to the rules, then the score with the other ball counts. You don't get to play both balls then choose the one with the lowest score. The selection MUST be made before either ball is played. If neither ball is played in accordance with the rules, then you either incur the appropriate penalty for the one you selected, or in the worst case you could be disqualified. If this player did not follow this procedure as I described and as laid out in Rule 3-3, then he disqualified himself by picking up the ball that was in play for failure to hole out. There is no gray area here... it's all black and white.

I too play tournaments on a busy public course (with up to 160 golfers in the field), and we still play 100% by the Rules of Golf, every round, every tournament. If we hit a shot that may be in trouble we play a provisional. If a player who has lost a ball failed to play a provisional, he returns to the last spot and plays another ball under penalty of stroke and distance. We don't ignore the rules and make up our own hazards and say that it's in the interest of pace of play. When we get out of position for this or any reason, we simply hurry up for a few strokes to catch back up again. Playing by the rules, our club still usually plays faster than the general public because we have our own strictly enforced pace of play policy. We can be (and are) penalized up to 2 strokes for slow play, and it only takes a couple of penalties being handed out to encourage players to keep pace. I just see no sense in not teaching young golfers the right way to do things right from the start.

[Bulls9999]

You must really be one fun guy to be around.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You don't seem to understand the way the Rule 3-3 works. You DO have to declare which ball you wish to score with, and you MUST finish the hole with that ball, and you should finish with both balls. You still mark your card with the score from both balls, and if the one you selected was played correctly under the pertinent Rule, then your score is the one made with that ball. If that ball was not played in accordance to the rules, then the score with the other ball counts. You don't get to play both balls then choose the one with the lowest score. The selection MUST be made before either ball is played. If neither ball is played in accordance with the rules, then you either incur the appropriate penalty for the one you selected, or in the worst case you could be disqualified. If this player did not follow this procedure as I described and as laid out in Rule 3-3, then he disqualified himself by picking up the ball that was in play for failure to hole out. There is no gray area here... it's all black and white.

I too play tournaments on a busy public course (with up to 160 golfers in the field), and we still play 100% by the Rules of Golf, every round, every tournament. If we hit a shot that may be in trouble we play a provisional. If a player who has lost a ball failed to play a provisional, he returns to the last spot and plays another ball under penalty of stroke and distance. We don't ignore the rules and make up our own hazards and say that it's in the interest of pace of play. When we get out of position for this or any reason, we simply hurry up for a few strokes to catch back up again. Playing by the rules, our club still usually plays faster than the general public because we have our own strictly enforced pace of play policy. We can be (and are) penalized up to 2 strokes for slow play, and it only takes a couple of penalties being handed out to encourage players to keep pace. I just see no sense in not teaching young golfers the right way to do things right from the start.

[Fileygolfer]

It's in a situation like this that the Rules become complicated.

Here is some pointers.

1. There doesn't have to be water in a Lateral Water Hazard, some "Environmentally-Sensitive Areas" can be classed as a Lateral Water Hazard and a Local Rule implemented.

2. It is always the case that a PLAYER MUST INFORM HIS MARKER in any situation where a ball in play is touched\lifted\moved\dropped by the player.

3. A MARKER does not have to sign the PLAYERS card if they don't think it is correct.

4. You can't THINK a ball is in a Water Hazard, you have to be sure that "IT IS A QUESTION OF FACT" whether a ball is in a Water Hazard.

5. All Local Rules should be either on the Scorecard or on a list given to each player before a round begins. This is normally Perminent LR's printed on the Card and Temporary LR's on a list given to the players.

OK so we now go to your situation.
The guy hits it into this unknown area and his ball is lost.
With the doubt he decides to play two balls under Rule 3-3 (which actually contradicts Rule 6-1, but that is another story) and should say which ball he wishes to count after the doubt is answered.
He then fails to finish the hole with one of the balls.

Now The NOTE in Rule 3-3 kicks in:-

Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the origional ball counts or, if the origional ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adpoted for that ball. However the Competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.

It seems that in your case The Committe took the decision that the 8? stood because he completed the hole with the correct score under both Rules 26-1 then 20-5 or Rules 27-1a then 20-5. Then reading the above Note decided that no penalty was needed for the shots with the second ball which he picked up.
A very very lucky lad.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

You must really be one fun guy to be around.

I play with one friend who knows the rules almost as well as 4-Putt. Although she's not the rule's police and will only answer if someone else asks - I've seen people get nervous around her, but only because they don't follow the rules.

[Bulls9999]

Filey, nice summary.

Brings up another question that I've been thinking about brought upon by this issue...if you lose a ball in a (lateral) water hazard, can you proceed with choice as to EITHER a) lost ball OR b) lateral water hazard, or does one take precedence over the other....do you have a choice which rule to drop by or are you forced to go one over the other? I could see if you had a choice to pick which rule, then that boy could have gone either way (if he knew for sure that the patch he lost the ball in was declared a lateral hazard).

Also....he never declared to his playing competitors...at any time... which ball he would wish to score with if allowed.

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

It's in a situation like this that the Rules become complicated.

Here is some pointers.

1. There doesn't have to be water in a Lateral Water Hazard, some "Environmentally-Sensitive Areas" can be classed as a Lateral Water Hazard and a Local Rule implemented.

2. It is always the case that a PLAYER MUST INFORM HIS MARKER in any situation where a ball in play is touched\lifted\moved\dropped by the player.

3. A MARKER does not have to sign the PLAYERS card if they don't think it is correct.

4. You can't THINK a ball is in a Water Hazard, you have to be sure that "IT IS A QUESTION OF FACT" whether a ball is in a Water Hazard.
- the rules allow you to be "virtually certain" (not absolutely certain)

26-1/1 Meaning of “Known or Virtually Certain”
If a ball has been struck towards a water hazard and has not been found, the term “known or virtually certain” indicates the level of confidence that the ball is in the water hazard that is required for the player to proceed under Rule 26-1. A player may not assume that his ball is in a water hazard simply because there is a possibility that the ball may be in the hazard. If it is not known that the ball is in the water hazard, in order for the player to proceed under Rule 26-1 there must be almost no doubt that the ball is in the hazard. Otherwise, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
All available evidence must be taken into account in determining whether knowledge or virtual certainty exists, including any testimony and the physical conditions in the area around the water hazard. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by a fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, there exists a greater certainty that the ball is in the hazard than there would be if there were deep rough in the area. Observing a ball splash in a water hazard would not necessarily provide knowledge or virtual certainty as to the location of the ball as sometimes such a ball may skip out of a hazard.
The same principle would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c). (Revised)

5. All Local Rules should be either on the Scorecard or on a list given to each player before a round begins. This is normally Perminent LR's printed on the Card and Temporary LR's on a list given to the players.
- they were....and the rules sheet said "native grass areas to be played as a lateral hazards"...but the kids weren't sure if that patch of bushes was considered 'native grass area'....if it was, I'm presuming the kid would have rathered taken the drop from that (clear shot at the green, about 20 yrds behind the green as opposed to from the bunker about 130 yrd in front of the green)....but he dropped the first ball by the native grass but chunked the shot into a grass bunker between that position and the green and proceeded to the bunker (???)

OK so we now go to your situation.
The guy hits it into this unknown area and his ball is lost.
With the doubt he decides to play two balls under Rule 3-3 (which actually contradicts Rule 6-1, but that is another story) and should say which ball he wishes to count after the doubt is answered.
He then fails to finish the hole with one of the balls.

Now The NOTE in Rule 3-3 kicks in:-

Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the origional ball counts or, if the origional ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adpoted for that ball. However the Competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.

It seems that in your case The Committe took the decision that the 8? stood because he completed the hole with the correct score under both Rules 26-1 then 20-5 or Rules 27-1a then 20-5. Then reading the above Note decided that no penalty was needed for the shots with the second ball which he picked up.
A very very lucky lad.