Odd lost ball situation

[Wazmankg]

Playing long par 4 the other day I caught a break with my drive down the left side staying above the junk, catching some hardpan and roll. I only had 160 left... much closer than usual but I was dead behind a very small tree. I executed a beautiful low draw around it and under its branches... exactly what I was trying to do actually, but it stuck under the lip of a trap just in front of the green. The lie was terrible and even getting out was going to be a problem. I tilted my body with the slope, opened the face and took a pretty hard swing. I felt club hit sand and ball but had no idea where it went. There was junk behind and left of the green, also way right. There's no way it could've cleared the lip and reached the junk over the green nor the junk right .. it was way too far. I even looked behind me... nothing. I think it may have somehow caught the lip and kicked left into that junk, but it was nowhere to be found. So now my question. Was I supposed to drop in the trap from where I hit it (it would not have stopped where I hit it from) or place it as close as possible to the place I hit it from. I did the latter, managed to knock it on and 2-putted for a triple. Was that the right thing to do ? Did I have any other options ?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Playing long par 4 the other day I caught a break with my drive down the left side staying above the junk, catching some hardpan and roll. I only had 160 left... much closer than usual but I was dead behind a very small tree. I executed a beautiful low draw around it and under its branches... exactly what I was trying to do actually, but it stuck under the lip of a trap just in front of the green. The lie was terrible and even getting out was going to be a problem. I tilted my body with the slope, opened the face and took a pretty hard swing. I felt club hit sand and ball but had no idea where it went. There was junk behind and left of the green, also way right. There's no way it could've cleared the lip and reached the junk over the green nor the junk right .. it was way too far. I even looked behind me... nothing. I think it may have somehow caught the lip and kicked left into that junk, but it was nowhere to be found. So now my question. Was I supposed to drop in the trap from where I hit it (it would not have stopped where I hit it from) or place it as close as possible to the place I hit it from. I did the latter, managed to knock it on and 2-putted for a triple. Was that the right thing to do ? Did I have any other options ?

;ost ball = replay from same spot. drop substitute see rule 20-2c and 20-5, you incurred two strokes for placing,

[Fileygolfer]

Sorry Waz, you have fallen foul of being TOO CORRECT in trying to play within the Rules.
You should have dropped the ball as near as possible to where the origional was. Only if it rolled more than Two Clublengths\out of the hazard\nearer the hole twice could you have placed it.

[Fourputt]

Drive = 1
Low draw = 2
Blast from bunker = 3
Lost ball (stroke and distance) = 4
Place instead of drop (2 stroke penalty) = 6
Blast out of bunker again = 7
2 putts = 9

Score for hole = 9

[Diane]

Tell the truth Waz - you just didn't want to hit out of that bunker again.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Diane

Tell the truth Waz - you just didn't want to hit out of that bunker again.

He did play from the bunker - he placed it in the bunker in an attempt to recreate the lie he had, which would have been impossible if dropping. So by being honest he ended up earning a two stroke penalty.

[Bulls9999]

So, if he was up against/near the lip of the bunker (this is uphill greenside I presume) and he drops and it rolls further back to a more level lie and more readily able to clear the lip, that would be ok, right?

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Sorry Waz, you have fallen foul of being TOO CORRECT in trying to play within the Rules.
You should have dropped the ball as near as possible to where the origional was. Only if it rolled more than Two Clublengths\out of the hazard\nearer the hole twice could you have placed it.

[Putton]

My rules question. Could Waz raked the bunker before he dropped?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

So, if he was up against/near the lip of the bunker (this is uphill greenside I presume) and he drops and it rolls further back to a more level lie and more readily able to clear the lip, that would be ok, right?

Yes, as long as the ball doesn't roll more than 2 clublengths from where it first hit the ground. If it does roll farther than that, he would have to redrop, and if the same thing happened again, THEN he would place the ball on the spot where it first hit the ground.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Putton

My rules question. Could Waz raked the bunker before he dropped?

Yes. Decision 13-4/37:

13-4/37 Ball Played from Bunker Is Out of Bounds or Lost; Player Tests Condition of Bunker or Smoothes Footprints Before Dropping Another Ball in Bunker

Q. A player plays from a bunker and his ball comes to rest out of bounds or is lost. He smoothes his footprints in the bunker at the place where he must drop a ball under Rule 27-1 or, before dropping a ball under Rule 27-1, he takes a few practice swings touching the sand in the bunker. Is the player in breach of Rule 13-4?

A. No. The prohibitions in Rule 13-4 apply only when the player’s ball is in the hazard or when it has been lifted from a hazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard. In this case, the player’s ball has been played from the hazard rather than lifted.

Furthermore, Exception 2 under Rule 13-4 allows a player, after playing his ball out of a hazard, to smooth sand or soil in the hazard, without restriction. This right overrides any conflicting provisions in other Rules, including Rule 13-2.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by JungleJ

He did play from the bunker - he placed it in the bunker in an attempt to recreate the lie he had, which would have been impossible if dropping. So by being honest he ended up earning a two stroke penalty.

You sure? Sorry - I'm at work and not paying enough attention to GRW.

[Pistol]

Originally Posted by Diane

You sure? Sorry - I'm at work and not paying enough attention to GRW.

Not paying attention to GRW, thats a two stroke penalty.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Diane

You sure? Sorry - I'm at work and not paying enough attention to GRW.

Then we're even.

Waz, is it possible the ball buried further into the lip of the bunker?

[straightshooter]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Waz, is it possible the ball buried further into the lip of the bunker?

That crossed my mind also. Hey rules-experts: If that had happened, what would be the ruling if both identically marked balls came flying out on the second attempt?

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Then we're even.

Waz, is it possible the ball buried further into the lip of the bunker?

No there was sand but it was very crusty. Its forward momentum was the only thing that caused the ball to stop under the lip. Had I dropped I definitely would've had a better shot than I did because it would've rolled down into the trap. It still would've probably taken me a blast and 2 putts, but at least I would've had a shot. It hit the 2nd one straight up and it landed on the front about 20' short of the pin. Also by local rule, all of the junk(environmentally sensitive areas, marshland, etc.) plays as a lateral water hazard, so if I saw where it went I could've gone that route. Oh well ... 7 is the highest I can post for handicap purposes anyway and that's what I carded although I'm sure there's something wrong with that, too. Could I have taken an unplayable from there ?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Could I have taken an unplayable from there ?

Yes, as long as you dropped the ball in the bunker. The only way to declare it unplayable and play from outside of the bunker is to return to the spot where the shot which got you in trouble came from, i.e. back behind that tree. You could have declared the ball unplayable under the bunker lip, dropped within 2 clublengths of where the ball lies, but still in the bunker, and played from there with one penalty stroke.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Yes, as long as you dropped the ball in the bunker. The only way to declare it unplayable and play from outside of the bunker is to return to the spot where the shot which got you in trouble came from, i.e. back behind that tree. You could have declared the ball unplayable under the bunker lip, dropped within 2 clublengths of where the ball lies, but still in the bunker, and played from there with one penalty stroke.

4-Putt - may I threadjack slightly. When a bunker is filled with bees - I declare it unplayable, but I drop outside the bunker and take the penalty. I know I can move to another bunker without penalty, but if one has bees, they all do. If there is imminent danger, do I need to return to the spot where I played the shot from?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Diane

4-Putt - may I threadjack slightly. When a bunker is filled with bees - I declare it unplayable, but I drop outside the bunker and take the penalty. I know I can move to another bunker without penalty, but if one has bees, they all do. If there is imminent danger, do I need to return to the spot where I played the shot from?

use your fundamentals, don't look for a special rule for bees in a bunker, figure it out. use the force.

i,e, dangerous condition not unplayable. unplayable costs a stroke. find the rule that covers that (what do you think it is?) and the dangerous condition decision,,,where did you read you can drop free in another bunker?

[Bulls9999]

So you got those rules too, heh?

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

No there was sand but it was very crusty. Its forward momentum was the only thing that caused the ball to stop under the lip. Had I dropped I definitely would've had a better shot than I did because it would've rolled down into the trap. It still would've probably taken me a blast and 2 putts, but at least I would've had a shot. It hit the 2nd one straight up and it landed on the front about 20' short of the pin. Also by local rule, all of the junk(environmentally sensitive areas, marshland, etc.) plays as a lateral water hazard, so if I saw where it went I could've gone that route. Oh well ... 7 is the highest I can post for handicap purposes anyway and that's what I carded although I'm sure there's something wrong with that, too. Could I have taken an unplayable from there ?

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

So you got those rules too, heh?

Yeah. I guess they don't want us hacking around in those areas or spending 5 minutes looking everytime someone hits it sideways. I forget how it's worded. It's not on the card but there's a sign posted in the clubhouse. Anything over the boundary fences is OB of course and there's no internal OB, God bless em. All otherwise unmarked, beyond the rough, nastiness is to be treated as a lateral water hazard. It's right on Lake Erie and much of the junk truly does have standing water, so it makes sense. That doesn't stop people from looking though, which really me off. Because especially this year with all the rain we've had, you're not going to be able to move it much less get it out even if you find it. I was behind a group yesterday that was off looking 30 yards into the stuff every other hole. We're talking knee high, so thick you can barely walk though it, stuff. I don't know what they thought they were doing. They weren't OGs either FWIW.