What was the correct result?

[Fileygolfer]

My daughter wanted taking to school this morning so I nipped up to the club for a couple of hours after dropping her off.
While there, I got involved in a conversation about what had happened in an Inter Club Knock-out Tournament a few days ago. It happened on the 17th hole at Ganton GC, it's a 252yd par 4 with a raised Green and Gorse bushes on three sides, very close on the right and behind. It also has numerous bunkers near the Green. The match reached that Tee All Square (Singles Match-Play) and Adam (from my Club) hit his Tee-shot over the green and knowing what was there declared that he would hit a Provisional. Donald (from Ganton GC) hit his Tee-shot into one of the bunkers short of the Green and then Adan hit his Prov to about 18". Donald didn't play a great shot out the sand and ended up at the back right corner of the green.
As they walked across the Green Donald said to Adam "I'll give you that for a 4 if you can't find the 1st Ball" and picked the Ball up and handed it to Adam.
Adams 1st Ball was not visable and so he said to Donald " you have a look at your Putt while I have a quick look"
Donald said "OK, I doubt you'll find it anyway" but he walked up to the edge of the gorse with Adam where he saw a Ball deep in a bush, "Could that be it?"
It was.
Adam identified it, found a place to drop it and did so under penalty (unplayable) and then played a fantastic shot that went in for a 3?
Donald holed his Putt for a 3 but could only make a Par 4 at the last against Adams birdie 3 which won him the Match 1 up.
Over dinner afterwards it was questioned if indeed this was correct, had Adam actually made a 4 on 17 when Donald conceded the 18" Putt.
After going through the facts (in detail) it was decided that the Result was correct, but was it?

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

My daughter wanted taking to school this morning so I nipped up to the club for a couple of hours after dropping her off.
While there, I got involved in a conversation about what had happened in an Inter Club Knock-out Tournament a few days ago. It happened on the 17th hole at Ganton GC, it's a 252yd par 4 with a raised Green and Gorse bushes on three sides, very close on the right and behind. It also has numerous bunkers near the Green. The match reached that Tee All Square (Singles Match-Play) and Adam (from my Club) hit his Tee-shot over the green and knowing what was there declared that he would hit a Provisional. Donald (from Ganton GC) hit his Tee-shot into one of the bunkers short of the Green and then Adan hit his Prov to about 18". Duncan didn't play a great shot out the sand and ended up at the back right corner of the green.
As they walked across the Green Donald said to Adam "I'll give you that for a 4 if you can't find the 1st Ball" and picked the Ball up and handed it to Adam.
Adams 1st Ball was not visable and so he said to Duncan " you have a look at your Putt while I have a quick look"
Duncan said "OK, I doubt you'll find it anyway" but he walked up to the edge of the gorse with Adam where he saw a Ball deep in a bush, "Could that be it?"
It was.
Adam identified it, found a place to drop it and did so under penalty (unplayable) and then played a fantastic shot that went in for a 3?
Duncan holed his Putt for a 3 but could only make a Par 4 at the last against Adams birdie 3 which won him the Match 1 up.
Over dinner afterwards it was questioned if indeed this was correct, had Adam actually made a 4 on 17 when Duncan conceded the 18" Putt.
After going through the facts (in detail) it was decided that the Result was correct, but was it?

I would have to say that the 3 stands (tough school by the way). I would be slightly less sure if Adam had picked the ball up, because arguably at that point he's accepted the concession and hence holed out and the original ball is gone. That would be kind of like tapping it in, which would have the same result. Since Duncan/Donald/whatever his name is did the picking up and the passing, I'd say he's still entitled to search for his original ball and play it. I must admit I thought the story would go the other way as I was reading it. i.e. Adam found it, took a drop and failed to get up and down, making 5. I think that would be an awkward situation, although presumably the 5 would stand in the same way as the 3 did. I don't know any of this for certain though. I'm sure atticus or fourputt will be along to say the same at some point.

I think, had Adam holed his shot from the tee for a three, that Duncan/Donald would have been entitled to search for the original ball, which is a similar situation.

[KC Mike]

I think the score from the original ball, which was found must stand. The other was a provisional.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

My daughter wanted taking to school this morning so I nipped up to the club for a couple of hours after dropping her off.
While there, I got involved in a conversation about what had happened in an Inter Club Knock-out Tournament a few days ago. It happened on the 17th hole at Ganton GC, it's a 252yd par 4 with a raised Green and Gorse bushes on three sides, very close on the right and behind. It also has numerous bunkers near the Green. The match reached that Tee All Square (Singles Match-Play) and Adam (from my Club) hit his Tee-shot over the green and knowing what was there declared that he would hit a Provisional. Donald (from Ganton GC) hit his Tee-shot into one of the bunkers short of the Green and then Adan hit his Prov to about 18". Duncan didn't play a great shot out the sand and ended up at the back right corner of the green.
As they walked across the Green Donald said to Adam "I'll give you that for a 4 if you can't find the 1st Ball" and picked the Ball up and handed it to Adam.
Adams 1st Ball was not visable and so he said to Duncan " you have a look at your Putt while I have a quick look"
Duncan said "OK, I doubt you'll find it anyway" but he walked up to the edge of the gorse with Adam where he saw a Ball deep in a bush, "Could that be it?"
It was.
Adam identified it, found a place to drop it and did so under penalty (unplayable) and then played a fantastic shot that went in for a 3?
Duncan holed his Putt for a 3 but could only make a Par 4 at the last against Adams birdie 3 which won him the Match 1 up.
Over dinner afterwards it was questioned if indeed this was correct, had Adam actually made a 4 on 17 when Duncan conceded the 18" Putt.
After going through the facts (in detail) it was decided that the Result was correct, but was it?

The provisional ball becomes the ball in play when a stroke is made at it from a point closer to the hole than the original is likely to be, That never happened.

The score with the original counts.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

I would have to say that the 3 stands (tough school by the way). I would be slightly less sure if Adam had picked the ball up, because arguably at that point he's accepted the concession and hence holed out and the original ball is gone. That would be kind of like tapping it in, which would have the same result. Since Duncan/Donald/whatever his name is did the picking up and the passing, I'd say he's still entitled to search for his original ball and play it. I must admit I thought the story would go the other way as I was reading it. i.e. Adam found it, took a drop and failed to get up and down, making 5. I think that would be an awkward situation, although presumably the 5 would stand in the same way as the 3 did. I don't know any of this for certain though. I'm sure atticus or fourputt will be along to say the same at some point.

I think, had Adam holed his shot from the tee for a three, that Duncan/Donald would have been entitled to search for the original ball, which is a similar situation.

This is a tricky one, there isn't a Decision specific to this situation. However Rule 2-4 states that "A player may concede his opponent's next stroke...". In this situation, although Donald/Duncan could not be sure the next stroke would be the short putt, the concession is not valid. My view...

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

I would have to say that the 3 stands (tough school by the way). I would be slightly less sure if Adam had picked the ball up, because arguably at that point he's accepted the concession and hence holed out and the original ball is gone. That would be kind of like tapping it in, which would have the same result. Since Duncan/Donald/whatever his name is did the picking up and the passing, I'd say he's still entitled to search for his original ball and play it. I must admit I thought the story would go the other way as I was reading it. i.e. Adam found it, took a drop and failed to get up and down, making 5. I think that would be an awkward situation, although presumably the 5 would stand in the same way as the 3 did. I don't know any of this for certain though. I'm sure atticus or fourputt will be along to say the same at some point.

I think, had Adam holed his shot from the tee for a three, that Duncan/Donald would have been entitled to search for the original ball, which is a similar situation.

Thanks for pointing out the Duncan\Donald thing. I edited the origional with all Donalds, it sounds better than saying "The guy from Ganton"

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Thanks for pointing out the Duncan\Donald thing. I edited the origional with all Donalds, it sounds better than saying "The guy from Ganton"

These things are easier to follow if you say player A and player B. Following names is difficult.

[Fileygolfer]

Adam admitted that it was more a gesture than an active search when he went to "look for his Ball". He also admitted that he felt that maybe both sides had agreed that the origional Ball was 'lost' before it was first seen.
Donald (the guy from Ganton) accepted that he lost his match but also questioned if his own actions may have lost him the hole. His concession of a possible 4 and the fact he touched a Ball that may or may not have been the Ball in play at that time.
It was a friendly debate, but one our Captain was still talking about this morning.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

These things are easier to follow if you say player A and player B. Following names is difficult.

It is, but it sounds less formal to use names.
Maybe we should get a middle ground where:-
Player A = ADAM
Player B = BRIAN
Player C = COLIN
Player D = DAN

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

Adam admitted that it was more a gesture than an active search when he went to "look for his Ball". He also admitted that he felt that maybe both sides had agreed that the origional Ball was 'lost' before it was first seen.
Donald (the guy from Ganton) accepted that he lost his match but also questioned if his own actions may have lost him the hole. His concession of a possible 4 and the fact he touched a Ball that may or may not have been the Ball in play at that time.
It was a friendly debate, but one our Captain was still talking about this morning.

They can agree until they are blue in the face, but untill one of the events in the definition of lost happens, the original remains the ball in play.

A ball is deemed "lost" if:

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

If you watch Tiger when he plays, he marches fairly quickly, but if he notices that the spotters haven't found his ball yet, he slows right down and sort of ambles up there, giving them more time to find it before he starts looking and the five minutes starts. Sneaky.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

If you watch Tiger when he plays, he marches fairly quickly, but if he notices that the spotters haven't found his ball yet, he slows right down and sort of ambles up there, giving them more time to find it before he starts looking and the five minutes starts. Sneaky.

Sneaky? Not hardly. Tiger didn't invent the slow stroll while others are looking for his ball.......and he's not the only one that uses it.

[Bulls9999]

So, if I follow through your 'accent' , the question is whether you can concede a 2-stroke concession or just 1 stroke?

Without looking anything up, off hand I'd say you can only concede 1 stroke, not make up some number to dish out, just imo....interesting to know what the answer is.

OK, I think I read it wrong...he was conceding the provisional as a 4?.....I don't think someone can force a concession on you, if you didn't accept it....and he did say, "if you don't find it", but you did.

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

My daughter wanted taking to school this morning so I nipped up to the club for a couple of hours after dropping her off.
While there, I got involved in a conversation about what had happened in an Inter Club Knock-out Tournament a few days ago. It happened on the 17th hole at Ganton GC, it's a 252yd par 4 with a raised Green and Gorse bushes on three sides, very close on the right and behind. It also has numerous bunkers near the Green. The match reached that Tee All Square (Singles Match-Play) and Adam (from my Club) hit his Tee-shot over the green and knowing what was there declared that he would hit a Provisional. Donald (from Ganton GC) hit his Tee-shot into one of the bunkers short of the Green and then Adan hit his Prov to about 18". Donald didn't play a great shot out the sand and ended up at the back right corner of the green.
As they walked across the Green Donald said to Adam "I'll give you that for a 4 if you can't find the 1st Ball" and picked the Ball up and handed it to Adam.
Adams 1st Ball was not visable and so he said to Donald " you have a look at your Putt while I have a quick look"
Donald said "OK, I doubt you'll find it anyway" but he walked up to the edge of the gorse with Adam where he saw a Ball deep in a bush, "Could that be it?"
It was.
Adam identified it, found a place to drop it and did so under penalty (unplayable) and then played a fantastic shot that went in for a 3?
Donald holed his Putt for a 3 but could only make a Par 4 at the last against Adams birdie 3 which won him the Match 1 up.
Over dinner afterwards it was questioned if indeed this was correct, had Adam actually made a 4 on 17 when Donald conceded the 18" Putt.
After going through the facts (in detail) it was decided that the Result was correct, but was it?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

So, if I follow through your 'accent' , the question is whether you can concede a 2-stroke concession or just 1 stroke?

Without looking anything up, off hand I'd say you can only concede 1 stroke, not make up some number to dish out, just imo....interesting to know what the answer is.

OK, I think I read it wrong...he was conceding the provisional as a 4?.....I don't think someone can force a concession on you, if you didn't accept it....and he did say, "if you don't find it", but you did.

This scenario does not present a concession question, it is a ball in play question. You cannot concede a stroke with a ball that is not in play.

(BTW, you can force a concession on your opponent. Once a stroke is conceded it cannot be refused or withdrawn.)

[Bulls9999]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

This scenario does not present a concession question, it is a ball in play question. You cannot concede a stroke with a ball that is not in play.

(BTW, you can force a concession on your opponent. Once a stroke is conceded it cannot be refused or withdrawn.)

Interesting, I didn't know that. I guess it's because it is you that is giving up something (the possibility he could take 2 strokes) by giving him only the 1 stroke, and he would be no worse off than if he scored it in 1 stroke, ok, I can see the sense in that.

In my original reading, I was reading it as if the guy in the bunker was laying 2 on the green and his putt was conceded for a 4, and I didn't see how you can concede the putting, but conceding 2 strokes for it....but it was the provisional ball laying 3, conceded for 4 that was being conceded.

[Fileygolfer]

I've spoken to Adam tonight and he admits that he would have been happy to have made a Par 4, but out of curiosity went to have a quick look to see if he had got a break and been lucky with where his origional Ball had finished. He also said that he didn't expect Donald to come over too because he thought that they had agreed that the origional was lost, but he had to do the right thing when his origional Ball was found. The fact that he could find a place to drop the Ball and then play a miracle shot made Adam feel he had stolen a half.

It is clear that we Golfers talk in different languages (accents) and the Rules are written in an set way. We know what we mean but do any of us talk the same way the Rules are written? I know I don't.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I've spoken to Adam tonight and he admits that he would have been happy to have made a Par 4, but out of curiosity went to have a quick look to see if he had got a break and been lucky with where his origional Ball had finished. He also said that he didn't expect Donald to come over too because he thought that they had agreed that the origional was lost, but he had to do the right thing when his origional Ball was found. The fact that he could find a place to drop the Ball and then play a miracle shot made Adam feel he had stolen a half.

It is clear that we Golfers talk in different languages (accents) and the Rules are written in an set way. We know what we mean but do any of us talk the same way the Rules are written? I know I don't.

Regardless of your accent. the rules of golf are univesral, and they do not allow a player to concede a stroke on a ball that is not in play.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

Regardless of your accent. the rules of golf are univesral, and they do not allow a player to concede a stroke on a ball that is not in play.

I don't think the "concede" question is the one here, its a "when is a ball lost" one.
If both sides agree that it is daft looking for a ball, why do they have to?

[Fileygolfer]

If we had to play in the same "Accent" as the Rules, would we hear this on the first Tee.
"Hello, I'm Colin, you can call me Player C today".
Then
"Good shot, Player B, I believe it made the closely-mown area"

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I don't think the "concede" question is the one here, its a "when is a ball lost" one.
If both sides agree that it is daft looking for a ball, why do they have to?

I didn't say they had to look, I said it is not "lost" just because they agree it is.

[JungleJ]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

I don't think the "concede" question is the one here, its a "when is a ball lost" one.
If both sides agree that it is daft looking for a ball, why do they have to?

They didn't have to look for the ball, but because they did, once it was found it was no longer possible to make a stroke at the provisional ball.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

I didn't say they had to look, I said it is not "lost" just because they agree it is.

OK lets get hypothetical.
If Adam had not been curious and Donald had holed out (so winning the hole?) and they had seen the Ball from the 18th Tee, what would happen?

Adam had not made a stroke from nearer the hole.
They hadn't started to search for the Ball so no 5minute Rule.
Adam had not conceded the hole even though Donald holed his Putt for a 3 and Adam believed he couldn't equal that.

This senario was also discused yesterday morning, and we came up with this outcome. Adam would continue with the origional Ball and Donald would have to replay his Putt.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by JungleJ

They didn't have to look for the ball, but because they did, once it was found it was no longer possible to make a stroke at the provisional ball.

Correct JJ, wrong wording by myself.
It should be "why is the Ball not lost until the players takes an action to deem it lost"

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

OK lets get hypothetical.
If Adam had not been curious and Donald had holed out (so winning the hole?) and they had seen the Ball from the 18th Tee, what would happen?

dam had not made a stroke from nearer the hole.They hadn't started to search for the Ball so no 5minute Rule.
Adam had not conceded the hole even though Donald holed his Putt for a 3 and Adam believed he couldn't equal that.

This senario was also discused yesterday morning, and we came up with this outcome. Adam would continue with the origional Ball and Donald would have to replay his Putt.

If he holed out for a three and the original was lost within the meaning of the rules he would win the hole.

But that did not happen.

Oh, I see. it takes a while to understand what you are getting at.

In that scenario, when he picked up the ball believing he could do no better, the act of picking up the ball makes the original lost and the hole is over.

See dec 27-2b/2.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

If he holed out for a three and the original was lost within the meaning of the rules he would win the hole.

But that did not happen.

Oh, I see. it takes a while to understand what you are getting at.

In that scenario, when he picked up the ball believing he could do no better, the act of picking up the ball makes the original lost and the hole is over.

See dec 27-2b/2.

Ah, but he didn't pick the ball up. His opponent did. Does that change anything?

[KC Mike]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

OK lets get hypothetical.
If Adam had not been curious and Donald had holed out (so winning the hole?) and they had seen the Ball from the 18th Tee, what would happen?

Adam had not made a stroke from nearer the hole.
They hadn't started to search for the Ball so no 5minute Rule.
Adam had not conceded the hole even though Donald holed his Putt for a 3 and Adam believed he couldn't equal that.

This senario was also discused yesterday morning, and we came up with this outcome. Adam would continue with the origional Ball and Donald would have to replay his Putt.

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

If he holed out for a three and the original was lost within the meaning of the rules he would win the hole.

But that did not happen.

Oh, I see. it takes a while to understand what you are getting at.

In that scenario, when he picked up the ball believing he could do no better, the act of picking up the ball makes the original lost and the hole is over.

See dec 27-2b/2.

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

Ah, but he didn't pick the ball up. His opponent did. Does that change anything?

But by agreeing to take that score, didn't he in fact declare his original ball lost?

(Multi quote would have worked so well here!)

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by KC Mike

But by agreeing to take that score, didn't he in fact declare his original ball lost?

But thats the point, you can't declare a Ball lost. It can only be deemed lost by an action, which Adam didn't do in any form.

[KC Mike]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

But thats the point, you can't declare a Ball lost. It can only be deemed lost by an action, which Adam didn't do in any form.

Sure you can and sure he did, in the alternate example. Par three. Tee shot slices into the woods. You hit a provisional that goes in the hole. You don't look for the one in the woods, saying, it's lost. (You just declared it lost). You take the provisional for a par.

Same as the other example. As soon as he accepted the score for his provisonal, he declares the original ball lost. You don't have to look for it.

[KC Mike]

Actually, after posting this, I have been doing some searching on declaring a ball lost and I find examples saying yes you can declare it lost anytime and examples saying you cannot (you have to look for it). So I am not sure at this point! But now I gotta know so I'll keep looking!

(I still think you can declare the ball lost though and not bother looking).


EDIT:

27-2. Provisional Ball
b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

You might not have taken a stroke, since the ball is in the hole now, but as soon as you write the score down, wouldn't that remove the need to take a stroke? What if you hit the ball one-inch from the hole and tapped in, since you went past the point where the original tee shot was likely to be, even though you didn't look?

In the rule I quoted, it doesn't say you have to look OR declare it lost; as soon as you hit a shot past the point where the ball is, the original ball is considered lost.

In match play, if someone concedes a putt, it still counts as a stroke, even though you didn't technically hit it.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

Ah, but he didn't pick the ball up. His opponent did. Does that change anything?

See? That's why hypotheticals are no good. Facts change and you don't know what you are doing.

In your hypo player B holed out for three and plsyer A decided he could do no better.

What happened to his ball then? Ordinarily he would pick it up and give up on the hole.

The point is, in equity whatever happened, it was the equivalent of doing one of the things in rule 27-2 or a concession. Your solution to continue with the later found original and replay the putt is not right.

(Stop hypos and stick to the facts of the case. It gets oo confusing if you keep changing facts.)

[Fileygolfer]

If you don't bother looking for the origional Ball and go play your provisional, as soon as you make a stroke at the provisional (if it is nearer the hole than the first ball) that ACTION deems the origional Ball lost.

That is the point of this senario, Adam hasn't taken any action(?) to deem his first Ball lost.

[KC Mike]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

That is the point of this senario, Adam hasn't taken any action(?) to deem his first Ball lost.

I say he did. He took the action as soon as he accepted the score for his provisional ball.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

See? That's why hypotheticals are no good. Facts change and you don't know what you are doing.

In your hypo player B holed out for three and plsyer A decided he could do no better.

What happened to his ball then? Ordinarily he would pick it up and give up on the hole.

The point is, in equity whatever happened, it was the equivalent of doing one of the things in rule 27-2 or a concession. Your solution to continue with the later found original and replay the putt is not right.

(Stop hypos and stick to the facts of the case. It gets oo confusing if you keep changing facts.)

I'm not changing any facts. When Fileygolfer originally gave us the scenario, player A didn't pick anything up. Player B picked it up for him.

In any case, once the original question has been answered (as it has in this case) it's much easier to ask continued questions here changing things a little bit than it would be to ask a whole new question. It's really not that confusing.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by KC Mike

Actually, after posting this, I have been doing some searching on declaring a ball lost and I find examples saying yes you can declare it lost anytime and examples saying you cannot (you have to look for it). So I am not sure at this point! But now I gotta know so I'll keep looking!

(I still think you can declare the ball lost though and not bother looking).


EDIT:


You might not have taken a stroke, since the ball is in the hole now, but as soon as you write the score down, wouldn't that remove the need to take a stroke? What if you hit the ball one-inch from the hole and tapped in, since you went past the point where the original tee shot was likely to be, even though you didn't look?

In the rule I quoted, it doesn't say you have to look OR declare it lost; as soon as you hit a shot past the point where the ball is, the original ball is considered lost.

In match play, if someone concedes a putt, it still counts as a stroke, even though you didn't technically hit it.

You can keep trying but there are only five things that render a ball lost, and saying so ain't one of them.

You can say 'that ball is lost' all day, but until one of the thing in 27-2 happens, the original is in play.

In your example, nothing was done to render the ball lost unless the player took it out of the hole before 5 mins was up. Until then, if the orig is found the provisional would be abandoned.

I cited this dec above but you must not have looked it up:

27-2b/2 When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play
Q. At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?
A. In equity (Rule 1-4), the provisional ball becomes tthe ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

[Ty_Webb]

Originally Posted by KC Mike

Sure you can and sure he did, in the alternate example. Par three. Tee shot slices into the woods. You hit a provisional that goes in the hole. You don't look for the one in the woods, saying, it's lost. (You just declared it lost). You take the provisional for a par.

Same as the other example. As soon as he accepted the score for his provisonal, he declares the original ball lost. You don't have to look for it.

But if your opponent finds your ball before you play your next shot (in this case from the following tee I think) then it remains the ball in play and the provisional (even if it's in the hole) is irrelevant. You can't just declare the ball lost.

Edit: picking the ball out of the hole counts as the equivalent of playing your next shot as per atticus's post.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Ty_Webb

I'm not changing any facts. When Fileygolfer originally gave us the scenario, player A didn't pick anything up. Player B picked it up for him.

But he did not say who picked it up in his hypo.

In any case, once the original question has been answered (as it has in this case) it's much easier to ask continued questions here changing things a little bit than it would be to ask a whole new question. It's really not that confusing.

....

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by KC Mike

I say he did. He took the action as soon as he accepted the score for his provisional ball.

There is nothing in rule 27-2 that says anything about accepting a score,

The rules mean what they say and no amount of voodoo logic will change them.

Why is it so hard to accept he rules as written?

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by atticusfinch

See? That's why hypotheticals are no good. Facts change and you don't know what you are doing.

In your hypo player B holed out for three and plsyer A decided he could do no better.

What happened to his ball then? Ordinarily he would pick it up and give up on the hole.

The point is, in equity whatever happened, it was the equivalent of doing one of the things in rule 27-2 or a concession. Your solution to continue with the later found original and replay the putt is not right.

(Stop hypos and stick to the facts of the case. It gets oo confusing if you keep changing facts.)

OK lets change the origional senario into FACTS:-

It's a Singles Match-play and the Players are All Square on the 17th Tee.
Player A hits his Tee-shot over the Green and declares that he will play a provisional.
Player B hits his Tee-shot into a front bunker.
Player A hits a Provisional Ball to 18".
Player B hits out of the bunker.
As both players pass the Flagstick, Player B picks up Player A's provisional Ball and says "I'll concede that for a 4 if you can't find your first Ball".
As both players reach the area where Player A's first Ball may be, Player A says "I don't think I'll find that, go Putt and I'll have a quick look"
Player B follows Player A and sees a Ball in a bush.
It is confirmed as Player A's Ball so he proceeds and makes a 3.
Player B then holes his Putt for a 3.

The questions that then arise are:-
1. Did Player A's actions deem the first Ball lost?
2. Did Player B's actions deem the first Ball lost?

With the comments that were then posted the Hypo question was added.

[KC Mike]

OK, but if I write the score down, I have the ball in my hand already. Do you often write your score down before you have removed it from the cup?

And in the original, alternate example, when the guy accepted the concesson, without looking for his ball, then isn't that it, even if they see it later. Doesn't conceding a putt still add a stroke to your score, even though you didn't hit it?

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

If you don't bother looking for the origional Ball and go play your provisional, as soon as you make a stroke at the provisional (if it is nearer the hole than the first ball) that ACTION deems the origional Ball lost.

That is the point of this senario, Adam hasn't taken any action(?) to deem his first Ball lost.

Then the orig remains in play and the fact that his opponent conceeded a putt withh it is irrelevant. But the solution is not to replay the opponent's putt. Adam just continues with the orig.