Retief Goosen: "Tiger Was Faking"

[CristieKerr]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

I just don't understand those who doubted his sincerity when he grimaced a few times. What in his past actions has ever led anyone to question his sincerity about such things?

Well why not question his sincerity in saying he was good and then thinking he was injured because he grimaced?

I've had fairly painful hip and abdomen injuries playing hockey. Upon return in both I grimaced upon being involved in contact or a pivot (in the case of the hip) because I knew how much it had hurt, but it didn't hurt hardly at all. Almost like I was anticipating more pain than was there. Especially the abdomen injury after I took a check that sent me flying. I grimaced and thought in my head and aloud words that I cannot repeat, then I hit the ground and pushed myself up slowly and realized I was healed, it didn't really hurt, it was more of the shock. Was I being dishonest? Was I lying to my teammates? No, I hadn't done something for a while that I used to do a lot and I anticipated more pain than I actually got.

We don't know Tiger at all, we have no idea how honest he is. We know he's a heckuva golfer who has a foundation. He would grimace on a shot here, then one there, and then on he 72nd he celebrated like crazy and the knee appeared to be absolutely fine. He'd hit crazy shots where he didn't wince, then he'd hit one where he did. It's not a stretch at all for someone to question the severity of the injury that he took extra time to come back form (before the news that hit Wednesday). Now it doesn't make sense, it's obvious he wasn't embellishing because it was a lot more serious than he was letting on.

Before that news it was plausible and far from a stretch, but Tiger Nation gets pretty uppity when you question their boy. Any other player and the Goose gets off easy with these comments, even if he should've kept him to himself as a Tour pro.

[CristieKerr]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

That may be your view of it, but it isn't truth.

It is the truth. Wow, that argument is stellar, why didn't I just go with this to begin with?

Originally Posted by mr3856a

When did he say he was "fully recovered"?

He told us he was ready, good to go, fine, ready for the Open, it' son..

Originally Posted by mr3856a

And anyone who watched take two steps at any point during the week - or saw him say that, for that matter - knew differently.

Apparently not because many questioned him, including one Tour pro publicly.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

Apparently not because many questioned him, including one Tour pro publicly.

And he now looks like a fool. At least you have company.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

Well why not question his sincerity in saying he was good and then thinking he was injured because he grimaced?

Because any half-wit could take his statements - and in particular the terse way in which they were given - and look at the way he was walking and almost dropping to his knees in pain after some swings and know the truth. And a quarter-wit would know why he was saying he was fine.

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

We don't know Tiger at all, we have no idea how honest he is.

By professional reputation he is completely honest. Do you know what a reputation for dishonesty does for you in professional golf? I've asked you repeatedly to provide any sort of evidence at all to suggest that anyone in the golf world thinks he's dishonest. Your unwillingness (or inability) to do so speaks volumes.

We get it. You don't like Tiger; you think Tiger's a liar; you think he's only good for playing golf and nothing else.

We get it.

[CristieKerr]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

And he now looks like a fool. At least you have company.

Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Because any half-wit could take his statements - and in particular the terse way in which they were given - and look at the way he was walking and almost dropping to his knees in pain after some swings and know the truth. And a quarter-wit would know why he was saying he was fine.



By professional reputation he is completely honest. Do you know what a reputation for dishonesty does for you in professional golf? I've asked you repeatedly to provide any sort of evidence at all to suggest that anyone in the golf world thinks he's dishonest. Your unwillingness (or inability) to do so speaks volumes.

We get it. You don't like Tiger; you think Tiger's a liar; you think he's only good for playing golf and nothing else.

We get it.

If you insist on me being a fool, I suppose I do have company.


And for the record, I've argued all the things you are asking me to argue against, you just haven't taken the time to respond to them. Oh, and I do like Tiger, more than Phil as well. You make a lot of assumptions for someone berating another for making one.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

And for the record, I've argued all the things you are asking me to argue against, you just haven't taken the time to respond to them. Oh, and I do like Tiger, more than Phil as well. You make a lot of assumptions for someone berating another for making one.

Everything you've said is an assumption, and you still never responded to the central question: where is all this overwhelming evidence that Tiger is somehow known to be or thought of as dishonest?

I've responded to every point you've made, and if you can show me otherwise, I'll gladly reply.

[JungleJ]

I think it might be time to close this thread.

[CristieKerr]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Everything you've said is an assumption, and you still never responded to the central question: where is all this overwhelming evidence that Tiger is somehow known to be or thought of as dishonest?

Again, when he told us he was good to go and wasn't.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by JungleJ

I think it might be time to close this thread.

The boys can debate (i.e. argue) all they want as long as the name calling ceases. The topic is certainly open for debate although I personally don't see how anyone other than Tiger could ever know the truth. Tiger might not tell us much but I have no reason to think that what he does tell us are lies.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

Again, when he told us he was good to go and wasn't.

He was good to go, was he not? What part of him winning suggests to you that he wasn't "good to go"? He won the tournament, so obviously he was good to go. What he did not say (that you have attributed to him) was that he was fine, uninjured, completely healed, no lingering problems, etc.

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

Well, he told us he was fine, fully recovered, no problems

So again, when did he say this?

Answer: he didn't.

No need to close the thread, I'm finished with it.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

No need to close the thread, I'm finished with it.

I find that difficult to believe based on your history, but we shall see. It's taking all of your willpower to not respond right now isn't it?

[CristieKerr]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

He was good to go, was he not? What part of him winning suggests to you that he wasn't "good to go"? He won the tournament, so obviously he was good to go. What he did not say (that you have attributed to him) was that he was fine, uninjured, completely healed, no lingering problems, etc.

The only thing I've attributed to him is that he looked like he was faking out there. That ain't calling him a liar, he said he was ready and would be just fine. Whether he won or not really has nothing to with whether he was fine or not. He wasn't fine, he was far from fine, he was (is) extremely injured. But, until Wednesday all we knew was that he had some arthroscopic knee surgery that he'd taken more than ample time recovering from. Everyone, including me and The Goose, who thought that has retracted it. He obviously was hurting, but to get from he's ready to go, fit for the US Open, don't worry about the knee to "Jeez, for a guy who is supposedly better and took ten weeks off, he certainly seems to be wincing a lot, and only half the time. When things are good, he seems to be fine. He's getting up and down on the greens easily, he's bouncing around like a crazy man on the 72nd, that knee appears fine when he is and bad when he wants it to be bad" is far from a stretch. And the last thing it is is calling him a liar. Like I said above, I've been pretty seriously hurt playing hockey and wince and grimace in situations where I know it hurts in my mind (strong physical contact, pivot) and then realize after it's over that it wasn't that bad, it doesn't really hurt. The anticipation of the pain is sometimes enough to make one wince. And it was only on the bad plays, like receiving a hit. If I was breaking into to try and score I wouldn't be thinking of it, I'd be thinking of beating the goalie. Was I lying about my injuries? No. Was I embellishing them? I can easily see how others might think so if I wince in pain when I get hit and then go off and score a goal with a guy all over my back and then I'm fine. Just like when someone takes a hit in hockey or a slash and then lays there and gets up and plays the next shift, a lot of people will say they were faking/embellishing their pain. Can you blame them? No, not even for a second. Even a guy like Sidney Crosby, who has never done anything to show that he is dishonest or cheap takes it from the fans. Lemieux went through it too, so did Gretz. It's part of it. It doesn't mean the fans who think Crosby dove or that Tiger was embellishing think they are lying, cheating, scum, it's that it appears they are in fact embellishing their injury/pain/whatever. It's not a lack of class by The Goose (or me, or anyone here who said it), no one is a fool for thinking it (unless they didn't change their mind about it after Wednesday which everyone did, and even then, that's just foolish doesn't mean anyone is a fool), and it isn't anything more than stating an opinion. Many people said the same thing about Phil's wrist and many will say the same about the next guys injury and calling people liars, fools, or that they lack class for thinking it or saying it is as wrong as we all were for thinking he was faking it.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

The only thing I've attributed to him is that he looked like he was faking out there.

Really?

Originally Posted by CristieKerr

Well, he told us he was fine, fully recovered, no problems

BYE!!!!!!!!!

[Texas Wedge]

All the bickering aside, I think it is reasonable for some people to think there might have been some "theatrics" involved. And to answer the question as to why? and what would he gain by it? Just ask Michelle Wie. You gain an excuse in case you lose. That said...I was not one that thought he was faking it.

My theory on why he was grimacing more on some shots than others and more often than not on the bad shots...is that the adrenaline rush from a good shot overshadowed the pain. Likewise, on a bad shot, the adrenaline isn't enough to numb the pain. I don't know about any of you, but I've played sports hurt before and the thrill of performing right seems to give you that extra little shot of adrenaline that makes you forget about your injury for a short time and when you screw it up...for some reason you notice the pain more. Maybe that's just me, but I can totally relate to the situation from personal experience on a NON-professional level. After finding out just what all was wrong with Tiger, I think the man is incredible for doing what he did and not just playing well, but winning the US Open.

Feel free to attack me, my opinions or thoughts or to just keep bickering.

[arroyotrabuco]

Why did Tiger's knee only hurt when he swung but it never hurt when he celebrated making a putt? Why?

[petermo]

Originally Posted by arroyotrabuco

Why did Tiger's knee only hurt when he swung but it never hurt when he celebrated making a putt? Why?

"The knee, or not the knee, that is the question"

(sorry, Wm.)

[Texas Wedge]

Originally Posted by arroyotrabuco

Why did Tiger's knee only hurt when he swung but it never hurt when he celebrated making a putt? Why?

Read my post above yours. It's called adrenaline. Many athletes experience a rush of adrenaline when they do something great and are thus able to block out pain much better due to the quick rush of ADRENALINE. Did I mention it was probably the adrenaline?

[GolfSavage]

Just because his knee had an operation doesn't mean if one movement caused pain then every move made with the joint had to be painful. I never saw him "fall to his knees" as some have said, only a sort of "limbo" stance where his knees bent and he leaned back as he shook his fist and hollered.

Here's his reaction after making the putt on the 72nd hole:
Tiger's Put On 72nd hole, 2008 US Open

I saw him grimace after good shots as well as bad, with no set pattern except it always appeared to be after he made contact and was completing his swing, so that it seemed to be that final torque on the leg, which we now know was probably the stress fractures that were hurting, not the knee. He was able to crouch behind putts, always with left knee up, get in and out of bunkers, sometimes needing a hand from Stevie. He said he would be fine, was ready to play, and judging by the outcome I believe those were honest and sincere statements.

[Phil and Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

Just because his knee had an operation doesn't mean if one movement caused pain then every move made with the joint had to be painful. I never saw him "fall to his knees" as some have said, only a sort of "limbo" stance where his knees bent and he leaned back as he shook his fist and hollered.

Here's his reaction after making the putt on the 72nd hole:
Tiger's Put On 72nd hole, 2008 US Open

I saw him grimace after good shots as well as bad, with no set pattern except it always appeared to be after he made contact and was completing his swing, so that it seemed to be that final torque on the leg, which we now know was probably the stress fractures that were hurting, not the knee. He was able to crouch behind putts, always with left knee up, get in and out of bunkers, sometimes needing a hand from Stevie. He said he would be fine, was ready to play, and judging by the outcome I believe those were honest and sincere statements.

Yes, I explained this clearly in my post earlier. You echo my points.
It was the fractures, not the knee

Originally Posted by arroyotrabuco

Why did Tiger's knee only hurt when he swung but it never hurt when he celebrated making a putt? Why?

It was the fractures, not the knee
read my post: basically, it hurt becasue at different angles and pressure it made the tibia fractures send sharp jabs of pain up his leg.