Kenny Perry Cheating in the FBR Open Playoff

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by straightshooter

I don't think that our positions on this issue are symmetrically opposed: Because falsely accusing someone of cheating is widely considered one of the lowest forms of human behavior, your position requires far more evidence than mine.

All the evidence is right here for anyone to see. Or for anyone who wants to see I guess.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Diane

How can a pro athlete break a rule without intent? They have no excuse for not knowing and abiding by the rules of the sport they play.

A basketball player committing a foul, for example. And if the guy was shooting a jumper, that's just ridiculous.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Diane

How can a pro athlete break a rule without intent? They have no excuse for not knowing and abiding by the rules of the sport they play.

In many other sports (maybe all?) besides golf, I would agree with you. If you break a rule in basketball, then you most likely knowingly broke it as there are not many to abide by.

With golf, there are so many rules that I think it would be impossible for someone to know them all. Even the rules officials at PGA tour events have to consult the rule book from time to time.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

You're the one accusing people of stating their opinion is fact. Reread your opening post and then remove the beam from your own eye before trying to remove the splinter from someone else's.

And even if I were to grant you this one, I still contend my opinion is fact in this particular instance.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Diane

How can a pro athlete break a rule without intent? They have no excuse for not knowing and abiding by the rules of the sport they play.

Think about that for a moment Diane and ask yourself why professional golfers are assessed penalty strokes. Rules are violated in all sports and there are usually penalties involved.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Think about that for a moment Diane and ask yourself why professional golfers are assessed penalty strokes. Rules are violated in all sports and there are usually penalties involved.

I understand that, but there are different types of violations - some with intent and some without. If Perry did improve his lie, then wouldn't that have been with intent?

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Diane

I understand that, but there are different types of violations - some with intent and some without. If Perry did improve his lie, then wouldn't that have been with intent?

Kenny Perry is the only one that can answer that.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Diane

I understand that, but there are different types of violations - some with intent and some without. If Perry did improve his lie, then wouldn't that have been with intent?

He could have done it with intent or without intent, which is the difference between breaking a rule and cheating.

[Johneli]

Let's punish him by making him manager of a putt-putt course for the rest of his life.....in Augusta.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Diane

How can a pro athlete break a rule without intent? They have no excuse for not knowing and abiding by the rules of the sport they play.

How ? Because they don't know the rule or don't think that the action they take breaks the rule. Many don't know all of the rules. I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of pro golfers don't know all of the rules or how they apply to every situation. That's why there are rules officials. The fact that you believe "They have no excuse for not knowing" the rules doesn't change the definition of cheating, which requires both knowledge and willful intent.

All of that said... IF KP did tamp down the grass directly behind his ball, then he cheated. I'm far from a rules guru and even I know that's not allowed. He certainly knows. It doesn't get much more basic than that. But I can't tell for sure from that camera angle. And FWIW I'm no big KP fan. I can pull out several old posts where I knocked him for chickening out on majors to make the RC last year and also for choking away The Masters.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

All of that said... IF KP did tamp down the grass directly behind his ball, then he cheated. I'm far from a rules guru and even I know that's not allowed. He certainly knows. It doesn't get much more basic than that.

That was my point. If he broke the rule - he cheated - despite what Mr.# says.

Originally Posted by mr3856a

And remember, I'm not saying conclusively he cheated per se, I'm saying he broke a rule.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by Diane

That was my point. If he broke the rule - he cheated - despite what Mr.# says.

Ok. I'll let you slide this time because there is no way KP doesn't know that rule.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Ok. I'll let you slide this time because there is no way KP doesn't know that rule.

See that wasn't so hard Waz.

[JPsuff]

.

You're STILL arguing about this?

Look, forget the video and just think logically for a moment.

Here's Kenny Perry in a playoff with Charlie Hoffman, They're the only two players on the course and they're the only two players that the fans and the network are focusing on. Kenny has his ball sitting in some heavy grass while Charlie has a delicate pitch from the fairway. Since there's no one else out on the course to watch, that means that every single thing these guys do right now is going to be documented with every camera and lens available.

One improves their lie when they're twenty shots off the lead and the only person around who might see them do it would be some maintenance guy emptying trash cans. But one doesn't improve one's lie when millions of people are watching and the camera's are so closely focused on your that they can not only see you sweat but the audience can identify the specific pore from which the sweat emanated.

So why in God's name would Kenny Perry pick this particular moment in time to improve his lie?





-JP

[Bolt Fore]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

And remember, I'm not saying conclusively he cheated per se, I'm saying he broke a rule.

So there you go. I'm not going to say Kenny is a perpetual cheater, but he cheated without any question in this instance.

Which is it ?

[droogy33]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

You came to this conclusion at first glance.

Impressive, huh?

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Diane

That was my point. If he broke the rule - he cheated - despite what Mr.# says.

You can unintentionally break a rule. That isn't cheating. That's breaking a rule.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

.

You're STILL arguing about this?

Look, forget the video and just think logically for a moment.

Look, forget the test results and just think logically for a moment.

Manny would lose over 8 million dollars in salary if he got caught doing steroids. His reputation as perhaps the greatest right-handed hitter of his generation would be in jeopardy, as would his almost certain induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He's hitting .350, leading the best team in the National League.

So why in God's name would Manny Ramirez pick this particular moment in time to take steroids?

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by droogy33

Impressive, huh?

Uh, not really.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

So there you go. I'm not going to say Kenny is a perpetual cheater, but he cheated without any question in this instance.

Which is it ?

Which is it? Yes.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Look, forget the test results and just think logically for a moment.

Manny would lose over 8 million dollars in salary if he got caught doing steroids. His reputation as perhaps the greatest right-handed hitter of his generation would be in jeopardy, as would his almost certain induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He's hitting .350, leading the best team in the National League.

So why in God's name would Manny Ramirez pick this particular moment in time to take steroids?

No wonder you're so confused, you've got your sports mixed up. BTW, Manny didn't pick this particular moment to take steroids. He picked this particular moment to get caught.

Back to Kenny......The camera angle you're basing your condemning "test results" on is only one possible solution but certainly not the only possible solution. Every sport has action that the camera shows us one way an event occurs only to have a different camera tell a different story. I'm convinced that is the case here.

[Bolt Fore]

Mr3856a Please pick one.
A unitentionly broke a rule
B he cheated

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

Mr3856a Please pick one.
A unitentionly broke a rule
B he cheated

You forgot:

C: Nothing happened.


-JP

[Bolt Fore]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

You forgot:

C: Nothing happened.


-JP

No I didn't forget, I just wanted him to commit one way or the other.
C nothing happened

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Look, forget the test results and just think logically for a moment.

Manny would lose over 8 million dollars in salary if he got caught doing steroids. His reputation as perhaps the greatest right-handed hitter of his generation would be in jeopardy, as would his almost certain induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He's hitting .350, leading the best team in the National League.

So why in God's name would Manny Ramirez pick this particular moment in time to take steroids?

Because he's always taken them, just like ARod. I don't know this for certain and it's a bit OT, but it always springs to my mind whenever one of these guys gets nailed.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

No wonder you're so confused, you've got your sports mixed up. BTW, Manny didn't pick this particular moment to take steroids. He picked this particular moment to get caught.

It doesn't appear I am the one who is confused. Who's to say Kenny didn't pick this particular moment to get caught? JP's argument was that it makes no sense for Kenny to do this now, at this particular moment. Maybe he has done it routinely in the past, out of view of the attention that comes with a playoff.

Well, it makes just as little sense for Manny to have done steroids now, in the intense period of focus we have on steroids in baseball. Yet he did. So there's no validity in the "think logically" argument.

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Back to Kenny......The camera angle you're basing your condemning "test results" on is only one possible solution but certainly not the only possible solution. Every sport has action that the camera shows us one way an event occurs only to have a different camera tell a different story. I'm convinced that is the case here.

You may be. I'm not. I've seen two angles, and although I thought immediately upon seeing the first clip that what he had done was wrong, the further scrutiny in this thread has only convinced me more that what I saw in first viewing the video is exactly what happened - that he broke a rule.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

Mr3856a Please pick one.
A unitentionly broke a rule
B he cheated

It's a judgment call as to whether he cheated, it is not a judgment call (in my eyes) whether he broke a rule. If you were to press me, I'd say he cheated. I find it hard to believe that a professional golfer with his experience in competition could just WHOOPS! improve his lie by accident.

And by the way, this is a different question than the one you asked before, just for the record:

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

So there you go. I'm not going to say Kenny is a perpetual cheater, but he cheated without any question in this instance.

Which is it ?

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

Because he's always taken them, just like ARod. I don't know this for certain and it's a bit OT, but it always springs to my mind whenever one of these guys gets nailed.

Exactly, and who's to say Kenny hasn't always improved his lie by "innocently" grounding the club behind his ball? Heck, his competitor, Charlie Hoffman, said, "We do that all the time." [emphasis added]

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

..Heck, his competitor, Charlie Hoffman, said, "We do that all the time." [emphasis added]

I found that comment amazing. These guys know that's not allowed. It's been said that Gary Player used to pull out a fairway wood and address his ball in the rough, pressing down the grass behind it, then switch to another club. Technically that's not a violation, because only Gary knows what his intent was. But KP was not addressing his ball when he was tamping down the grass, which is a clear violation if it was the grass directly behind his ball... which as I've already stated I can't determine conclusively from the video(and we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point).

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

I found that comment amazing. These guys know that's not allowed. It's been said that Gary Player used to pull out a fairway wood and address his ball in the rough, pressing down the grass behind it, then switch to another club. Technically that's not a violation, because only Gary knows what his intent was. But KP was not addressing his ball when he was tamping down the grass, which is a clear violation if it was the grass directly behind his ball... which as I've already stated I can't determine conclusively from the video(and we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point).

It doesn't matter if you're actually addressing it per se. Purposely tamping down the grass behind your ball is a rule violation. You say you can't determine conclusively, which is fine. I feel that I can quite clearly.

And though I've already mentioned this and wish I could find it to post, that was the biggest rules violation reported by anonymous PGA Tour caddies in the caddy survey a few years back, guys "addressing" the ball and tapping down the grass behind it, and this is seemingly confirmed by both Charlie's words and Kenny's actions.

[JimSomebody]

Kenny Perry's new rescue club:




Now that was uncalled for. Apologies to all. And: Just kidding, Kenny!
.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JimSomebody

Kenny Perry's new rescue club:




Now that was uncalled for. Apologies to all. And: Just kidding, Kenny!
.

A little humor to a serious subject is never a bad idea, thanks Jim

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Well, it makes just as little sense for Manny to have done steroids now, in the intense period of focus we have on steroids in baseball. Yet he did. So there's no validity in the "think logically" argument.

We all know better than to get into a "think logically" discussion with you.

Originally Posted by mr3856a

You may be. I'm not. I've seen two angles, and although I thought immediately upon seeing the first clip that what he had done was wrong, the further scrutiny in this thread has only convinced me more that what I saw in first viewing the video is exactly what happened - that he broke a rule.

How many shots was Perry penalized for this "alleged" violation of the rules? The powers that be that were on the scene and later viewed the video didn't deem it an infraction. What we see on the video is a possible infraction, not a definite one. I think it's safe to say that Perry will be a bit more careful in the future.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

We all know better than to get into a "think logically" discussion with you.

Nice dodge.

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

How many shots was Perry penalized for this "alleged" violation of the rules? The powers that be that were on the scene and later viewed the video didn't deem it an infraction. What we see on the video is a possible infraction, not a definite one. I think it's safe to say that Perry will be a bit more careful in the future.

None, but I've already posted the thoughts of a well-respected golf writer on the prospects of the PGA Tour actually going back and penalizing a star player after the fact.

Incidentally, it might be an indication to anyone interested what the Tour really thought of the tape given that they wouldn't release it for several months after the event. It apparently took quite a stir for them to finally relent and publicly release the video.

[Blue_Arc]

The video shows without a doubt that the lie was improved. You could barely see the ball before he tamped the grass down and after...you could see it plain as day. Nothing to do with camera angle. Intentional or not the lie was improved. I see a penalty...but I don't really care...it's just what I see.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Incidentally, it might be an indication to anyone interested what the Tour really thought of the tape given that they wouldn't release it for several months after the event. It apparently took quite a stir for them to finally relent and publicly release the video.

How can the PGA Tour prevent a live broadcast from being released? Like the truth, the video has always been out there.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

How can the PGA Tour prevent a live broadcast from being released? Like the truth, the video has always been out there.

Au contraire, mon frère.

This tape has taken on a mythical status in the game in recent days, talked about by many but seen by very few. John Paramor, chief referee of the European Tour, is one of the few and for the last few days a steady stream of competitors at the Irish Open at Baltray beat the path to his door to take a look at what Perry did.

Golf gets its niblicks in a twist over Kenny Perry 'cheat' scandal

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Au contraire, mon frère.

And then later in the same article, the following comment appeared:

This interpretation is perfectly understandable, according to Paramor, but it is also wrong. "There should be no penalty against the player in this instance," declares Europe's leading rules man. The PGA Tour reached the same verdict last Sunday, though it chose not to explain its decision in detail, stating only that it had "no problem" with Perry's conduct and issuing a short statement: "When a question was raised this week, several members of the tournament committee reviewed the videotape of Kenny Perry and no evidence of any rules violation was found. As the competition is closed, we will have no further comment on the matter."

Europe's "leading rule's man" doesn't have a problem with this, the PGA doesn't have a problem with this and the tournament committee doesn't have a problem with this and went on to point out that they will have no further comment.

So why is this such a problem for you and others?


-JP

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

And then later in the same article, the following comment appeared:

This interpretation is perfectly understandable, according to Paramor, but it is also wrong. "There should be no penalty against the player in this instance," declares Europe's leading rules man. The PGA Tour reached the same verdict last Sunday, though it chose not to explain its decision in detail, stating only that it had "no problem" with Perry's conduct and issuing a short statement: "When a question was raised this week, several members of the tournament committee reviewed the videotape of Kenny Perry and no evidence of any rules violation was found. As the competition is closed, we will have no further comment on the matter."

Europe's "leading rule's man" doesn't have a problem with this, the PGA doesn't have a problem with this and the tournament committee doesn't have a problem with this and went on to point out that they will have no further comment.

So why is this such a problem for you and others?


-JP

That's his opinion. There are plenty of others who do have a problem with it, and not just internet clowns like me. As previously noted:

John Paramor, chief referee of the European Tour, has watched the video more than 100 times, often in the company of other professional golfers. "The first thing they say when they see it is: 'The guy has done something bad,'" he says.

That's coming from other touring pros.

And again, from John Huggan, former Scottish Amateur Champion, former Senior Editor at Golf Digest, regular contributor to Golf World, and co-author of a multitude of books with David Leadbetter, Hank Haney, Gary McCord, etc.:

Collectively, the PGA Tour brass are past masters at making bad news go away, even when the evidence to the contrary is seemingly incontrovertible. Take last week, when videotape came to light of just what Kenny Perry got up to on the first hole of a sudden death play-off for this year's FBR Open.

As soon as they had seen America's Ryder Cup hero and recent Masters choker in action, tour officials went into "damage control mode," insisting that Perry's tap-tap-tapping on what CBS commentator David Feherty had just called a "big clump of grass behind his ball" was not a breach of the rules.

Even the man beaten in the play-off, Charley Hoffman, wanted nothing to do with pointing out the obvious. "I have no problem with that," he gasped. "We all do it."

If what Hoffman claims is true, not only does golf at the highest level have a serious problem, but some education in the area of what does and does not constitute "improving one's lie" is badly needed.

Kenny Perry Cheating in the FBR Open Playoff

And just a final note, to say that the PGA Tour "doesn't have a problem with it" is a bit disingenuous. Everyone who knows anything about professional golf knows what would happen not only to Kenny's reputation if the PGA Tour declared he cheated and/or broke a rule, but with Hoffman's "we all do it" comment there would be an uproar about the entire world of professional golf. You would be besmirching the name of the Golden Boy of the last 2 years and have one of your own members calling the entire Tour a bunch of cheaters.

The PGA Tour doesn't have a problem with it? OF COURSE the PGA Tour "doesn't have a problem with it." * wink, wink *

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Au contraire, mon frère.

I read the article in the link and the writer and the article are from the UK, a place where it's understandable that very few would see the video. You might try reading it again yourself. I didn't see where it said anything about anyone hiding the video or trying to prevent it from being "released." However, I did see where it said..........

".....the strictest reading of rule 13.2 in the Rules of Golf: "A player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball ... by any of the following actions - pressing a club on the ground, moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed." This interpretation is perfectly understandable, according to Paramor, but it is also wrong. "There should be no penalty against the player in this instance," declares Europe's leading rules man. The PGA Tour reached the same verdict last Sunday, though it chose not to explain its decision in detail, stating only that it had "no problem" with Perry's conduct and issuing a short statement: "When a question was raised this week, several members of the tournament committee reviewed the videotape of Kenny Perry and no evidence of any rules violation was found. As the competition is closed, we will have no further comment on the matter."

Just for the record, The Warren Commission found that Oswald acted alone. Not everyone believes that either.