Kenny Perry Cheating in the FBR Open Playoff

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

I read the article in the link and the writer and the article are from the UK, a place where it's understandable that very few would see the video. You might try reading it again yourself. I didn't see where it said anything about anyone hiding the video or trying to prevent it from being "released." However, I did see where it said..........

They don't have the internet it the UK? And that's not the only place I've seen where it said the video was hard to come by.

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

".....the strictest reading of rule 13.2 in the Rules of Golf: "A player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball ... by any of the following actions - pressing a club on the ground, moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed." This interpretation is perfectly understandable, according to Paramor, but it is also wrong. "There should be no penalty against the player in this instance," declares Europe's leading rules man. The PGA Tour reached the same verdict last Sunday, though it chose not to explain its decision in detail, stating only that it had "no problem" with Perry's conduct and issuing a short statement: "When a question was raised this week, several members of the tournament committee reviewed the videotape of Kenny Perry and no evidence of any rules violation was found. As the competition is closed, we will have no further comment on the matter."

See above.

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Just for the record, The Warren Commission found that Oswald acted alone. Not everyone believes that either.

I know, myself included.

[JPsuff]

.

The thing that gets me most about all of this is the way that people are pointing to this particular moment as if it were the deciding factor in the way the tournament played out. But the truth is that although Perry did win the FBR, it wasn't until the third playoff hole, so this particular moment had little bearing on what happened.

Fact is, both Perry and Hoffman bogeyed that first playoff hole and if Perry had actually improved his lie, it did him no good because he almost flubbed the shot anyway. Perry was quoted after the event saying: "The playoff was ugly. We were hitting it everywhere, having to scramble from all over the place."

So it was not as if this alleged infraction was the turning point - or even a defining moment in the overall outcome of the event. If after his alleged "improvements" he then stiffed that chip and tapped in for the win, I could understand there being a bit of controversy. But one would think that if he really improved his lie, he'd have ended up with a much better opportunity to win right there instead of just settling for a bogey and go on to play two more holes.


-JP

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

They don't have the internet it the UK? And that's not the only place I've seen where it said the video was hard to come by.

My point was that not so many in the UK would be concerned about an incident that occurs on the PGA Tour. You've inferred that there was an effort to cover up what happened by saying the PGA Tour didn't "release" the video or that it was "hard to come by." I don't see that at all.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

.

The thing that gets me most about all of this is the way that people are pointing to this particular moment as if it were the deciding factor in the way the tournament played out. But the truth is that although Perry did win the FBR, it wasn't until the third playoff hole, so this particular moment had little bearing on what happened.

Fact is, both Perry and Hoffman bogeyed that first playoff hole and if Perry had actually improved his lie, it did him no good because he almost flubbed the shot anyway. Perry was quoted after the event saying: "The playoff was ugly. We were hitting it everywhere, having to scramble from all over the place."

So it was not as if this alleged infraction was the turning point - or even a defining moment in the overall outcome of the event. If after his alleged "improvements" he then stiffed that chip and tapped in for the win, I could understand there being a bit of controversy. But one would think that if he really improved his lie, he'd have ended up with a much better opportunity to win right there instead of just settling for a bogey and go on to play two more holes.


-JP

Not the deciding factor? If he failed to call a penalty shot on himself that he should have he signs for the wrong score and is therefor DQ'ed. That's rather decisive if you ask me.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

My point was that not so many in the UK would be concerned about an incident that occurs on the PGA Tour. You've inferred that there was an effort to cover up what happened by saying the PGA Tour didn't "release" the video or that it was "hard to come by." I don't see that at all.

The former Senior Editor of Golf Digest saw it that way.

[straightshooter]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

The former Senior Editor of Golf Digest saw it that way.

Is that why they fired him?

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Not the deciding factor? If he failed to call a penalty shot on himself that he should have he signs for the wrong score and is therefor DQ'ed. That's rather decisive if you ask me.

Perhaps I was not clear in my meaning.

What I was trying to express was that if he cheated, he didn't do a very good job of capitalizing on it. As it turns out, he bogeyed the hole, so for all of his alleged "improving", it didn't do him any good, did it? Though Perry is no Nicklaus, one would assume that if he set himself up with an improved lie (presumably to better his chances of winning), then he would have done better than to basically flub the shot and leave himself a twenty foot putt for par - especially after Hoffman messed up his approach already.

So either he didn't cheat, or he's just incredibly inept at "seizing the moment".


-JP

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

The former Senior Editor of Golf Digest saw it that way.

Let me know when being the former Senior Editor of Golf Digest trumps a current PGA Tour Rules official or "Europe's leading rules man" decision. Being a former Senior Editor of a golf mag only entitles him to his opinion. That doesn't make him right.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Let me know when being the former Senior Editor of Golf Digest trumps a current PGA Tour Rules official or "Europe's leading rules man" decision. Being a former Senior Editor of a golf mag only entitles him to his opinion. That doesn't make him right.

It doesn't make him wrong, either. And being a rules official, Europe's leading or otherwise, doesn't make him inherently right. In fact, he's basing his OPINION on a video clip many here call absolutely inconclusive, and some have said it's all pure speculation.

Dr. Trey Holland is the past president of the USGA, chairman of the USGA Championship Committee in 1998-99 and served as chairman of the Rules of Golf Committee from 1993-97 and famously gave Ernie Els an incorrect ruling at the 1994 U.S. Open:

His name was Dr. Trey Holland, chairman of the USGA Rules Committee, and he nearly gave the tournament to Els. What happened was that Els got himself a stomachful of hummingbirds on the 1st tee and smashed his driver into rough you could lose a piano in. At that point Ernie had to wish he were somewhere Els, because the best he could do was chip out sideways and make bogey, and the worst he could do was make double and lose the Open five minutes into his round.

But that's when Holland decided that an ABC cherry picker with a camera on it was in Els's "line of play" to the hole. "It's a temporary immovable obstruction," said Holland. It was temporary, all right, but it certainly was the first object on wheels ever called immovable. Holland allowed Els a free drop on a sweet patch of trampled-down grass.

"Dang," said a fan nearby. "Why don't you just give him a tee?"

Els knocked it onto the green, then three-putted anyway. Not long after, the "immovable obstruction" started up its engine and drove off.

"I made a mistake," Holland said later. "I feel bad."

From Trouble To Triumph

I see your "Europe's leading rules man" and raise you a Chairman of the USGA Rules of Golf Committee.

[Diane]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Let me know when being the former Senior Editor of Golf Digest trumps a current PGA Tour Rules official or "Europe's leading rules man" decision. Being a former Senior Editor of a golf mag only entitles him to his opinion. That doesn't make him right.

Sort of like being an Admin of GRW.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Diane

Sort of like being an Admin of GRW.

[mr_bogey]

Diane, I know I haven't read all 5000+ of your posts, but I would definitely put this one in the top 3

Originally Posted by Diane

Sort of like being an Admin of GRW.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Diane

Sort of like being an Admin of GRW.

Just like the PGA Tour Rules officials and Europe's leading rules guy, when it comes to the rules of GRW the Admins are the ruling bodies and make the final judgements. However, we always welcome the opinions of those otherwise unqualified to do so.....even yours.

Good one though.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

I see your "Europe's leading rules man" and raise you a Chairman of the USGA Rules of Golf Committee.

You mean the one with the track record of being famously wrong? My money says Perry didn't cheat and until the PGA Tour penalizes him for this infraction, I see your raise and I'm all in.

[Wazmankg]

There seems to be a gray area here at least in the minds of some of the players(see Hoffman's comment). They're allowed to address the ball and push down the grass while doing so. Has anyone ever been penalized for this ? Obviously this isn't something someone would call on themselves unless the ball moved.

[Leaguegolf]

Did he, or didn't he? The Perry Incident.

It's doubtful we'll see anyone risk putting their club behind the ball like that again anytime soon.

[Johneli]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Did he, or didn't he? The Perry Incident.

It's doubtful we'll see anyone risk putting their club behind the ball like that again anytime soon.

Great fodder for discussion, but there is no doubt that Kenny Perry's pleasant personality coupled with his late rededication and success in the game, has made many people shut their eyes to a glaring infraction. That golf ball's position DICTATED that Perry would have to go through that tuft of grass to get to the ball. When you tamp down that tuft you have just knowingly increased your chances of hitting a better shot. Plain and simple in my view. It's truly no different than improving your lie in the fairway (summer rules in effect.) by rolling your ball onto a tuft of grass to improve your chances of hitting a good shot. No different at all.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

You mean the one with the track record of being famously wrong?

That was only pointed out to blast your "Europe's-leading-rules-guy-can't-be-wrong" theory. Point being, anybody can be wrong at any time, even the Chairman of the USGA Rules of Golf Committee. So don't tell me that just because so-and-so is in someone's opinion "Europe's leading rules man" and someone else is a former Senior Editor at Golf Digest (and former Scottish Amateur Champion and renowned author on the game, by the way) that one trumps the other simply by title.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Point being, anybody can be wrong at any time...

And this of course applies to you as well...


...correct?


-JP

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

And this of course applies to you as well...


...correct?


-JP

Absolutely.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by Johneli

It's truly no different than improving your lie in the fairway (summer rules in effect.) by rolling your ball onto a tuft of grass to improve your chances of hitting a good shot.

Tell me more about these "Summer Rules." Winter Rules I'm very familiar with but I've never heard of Summer Rules.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Tell me more about these "Summer Rules." Winter Rules I'm very familiar with but I've never heard of Summer Rules.

Summer rules, summer just recommendations!

[JPsuff]

.


Summertime and the fluffin' is easy...


Ya' gotta love Gershwin!



-JP

[Blue_Arc]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

.


Summertime and the fluffin' is easy...


Ya' gotta love Gershwin!



-JP

Drivers workin' and the ruff is high.
You're on in two but you card double boggy
So hush...little baby....
Don't you cry....Ha!

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Blue_Arc

Drivers workin' and the ruff is high.

Sing it baby, sing it!



-JP

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Sing it baby, sing it!

American Idol doesn't start again until January.

[Johneli]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Tell me more about these "Summer Rules." Winter Rules I'm very familiar with but I've never heard of Summer Rules.

OK. Summer rules mean you don't improve your lie in the fairway. Winter rules means you can improve your lie in the fairway. I used to live in Ohio and when you played during the winter months the ground was hard and there wasn't much grass growing in the fairways...hence you could improve your lie or it would be like playing off a cart path. In the summer when the fairways are lush of course you don't touch the ball anywhere. And the rough is the rough and you don't touch it even during winter rules.

No one's ever heard of this before?

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Johneli

OK. Summer rules mean you don't improve your lie in the fairway. Winter rules means you can improve your lie in the fairway. I used to live in Ohio and when you played during the winter months the ground was hard and there wasn't much grass growing in the fairways...hence you could improve your lie or it would be like playing off a cart path. In the summer when the fairways are lush of course you don't touch the ball anywhere. And the rough is the rough and you don't touch it even during winter rules.

No one's ever heard of this before?

Yes I've heard of it and I think the whole concept is silly. First of all, if you're playing in the winter and the ground is so hard that it won't allow a divot, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place. But if the ground is soft enough to allow a divot, then I would think that a "grassless" lie would be ideal - no chance for a flyer and pure ball-first contact.

As far as things like lift-clean and place are concerned, I have no problem with that for two reasons:

1. The pro's do it and if it's OK with the PGA it's OK with me
2. Many of the courses I play are at or slightly below sea level and after a storm a normal fairway lie is often a muddy mess, so lift-clean and place mekes sense from a fairness point of view

Other than that, it's just hit the ball as it lies and that's that; winter, spring, summer or fall.


-JP

[Diane]

Winter rules are local rules and to be honest - I've never seen them spelled out anywhere. There is usually a sign saying to play by Winter rules, but it doesn't say what they are. When we play Winter golf - we follow lift clean & place and we don't hit off ice/snow. We consider all other shots to be practice so we'll hit out of divots, out of mud and off bare patches, etc. Handicap season is closed in the Winter here so there's nothing to lose by playing these shots for fun.

[Johneli]

Originally Posted by Diane

Winter rules are local rules and to be honest - I've never seen them spelled out anywhere. There is usually a sign saying to play by Winter rules, but it doesn't say what they are. When we play Winter golf - we follow lift clean & place and we don't hit off ice/snow. We consider all other shots to be practice so we'll hit out of divots, out of mud and off bare patches, etc. Handicap season is closed in the Winter here so there's nothing to lose by playing these shots for fun.

Just slick course management. Powers that be would rather you not tear up the course with summer rules...therefore they would LOVE to impose winter rules....improved lies mean fewer divots.

[Johneli]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Yes I've heard of it and I think the whole concept is silly. First of all, if you're playing in the winter and the ground is so hard that it won't allow a divot, then you shouldn't be playing in the first place. But if the ground is soft enough to allow a divot, then I would think that a "grassless" lie would be ideal - no chance for a flyer and pure ball-first contact.

As far as things like lift-clean and place are concerned, I have no problem with that for two reasons:

1. The pro's do it and if it's OK with the PGA it's OK with me
2. Many of the courses I play are at or slightly below sea level and after a storm a normal fairway lie is often a muddy mess, so lift-clean and place mekes sense from a fairness point of view

Other than that, it's just hit the ball as it lies and that's that; winter, spring, summer or fall.


-JP

Ground isn't necessarily frozen when we played, but there were so many grassless areas that you just had to improve your lie or you would be damaging your clubs going after balls just laying on dirt. Cuz without the grass your clubhead just digs into pure dirt....repleat with many small stones.

[straightshooter]

Originally Posted by Johneli

Ground isn't necessarily frozen when we played, but there were so many grassless areas that you just had to improve your lie or you would be damaging your clubs going after balls just laying on dirt. Cuz without the grass your clubhead just digs into pure dirt....repleat with many small stones.

If you risk breaking your club, fair enough! If you are worried about a few scratches on your soles, then forget about it! The pure dirt lie you describe sounds like the perfect treatment for a new clubset to me, to take care of that show-room finish!