Kenny Perry Cheating in the FBR Open Playoff

[mr3856a]

I'm surprised to see this hasn't been an issue around here. The PGA Tour has reviewed this and swept it under the rug, but there's no denying Kenny Perry improved his lie during the playoff at the FBR Open:



So there you go. I'm not going to say Kenny is a perpetual cheater, but he cheated without any question in this instance.

Here's to everyone who over the last couple years fell all over themselves telling all of us what a stand up guy Kenny is. :cheers:

[straightshooter]

Hard to tell how far from the ball he is putting down his wedge, and impossible to tell, from that video, whether the grass he manipulated was in or near his swing-path.

[JPsuff]

.

It seems to me that he's setting the club down about six inches or so behind the ball to get a feel for how deep the grass is. There's no way to tell for sure from that video or from the angles presented but the very last view of the ball from more or less ground level doesn't show any grass pushed down immediately behind the ball.

I'm not a Kenny Perry fan (I don't really have any feelings about him one way or another), but even if I flat out hated the guy, I couldn't "convict" him of anything based solely on that video.


-JP

[deronsizemore]

I don't think he cheated. Camera angles are notorious for showing things differently than they seem plus Kenny has been on tour for a long time and he obviously realizes that cameras and fans are everywhere (with announcers, rules officials, etc. watching every move) and I just don't see him blatantly cheating as he knows there's about a 1% chance that he'll get away with it.

[droogy33]

Absolutely zero evidence in that video that Kenny cheated. He pressed the grass down too far from the ball...and smartly, may I add...for it to qualify as breaking the rules. Non-story.

[Leaguegolf]

The real story here is that mr3856a has reappeared.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the Kenny Parry cheated angle. Pun intended.

BTW......welcome back mr#'s.

[droogy33]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

The real story here is that mr3856a has reappeared.


BTW......welcome back mr#'s.

I'll never forget what Lefty used to call Mr. #s. Cracks me up every time.

[GolfSavage]

Shame he had to return with such a worthless and libelous post.

[Leaguegolf]

I wouldn't call it that. At first glance the video is incriminating and certainly worth commenting on. Even if those comments were wrong.

[Wazmankg]

I doesn't look good. I agree that you can't tell conclusively from the camera angle but, while the camera angle doesn't change, at first you can't see Perry's ball then after he tamps down the grass a couple of times you can see it very clearly.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

I wouldn't call it that. At first glance the video is incriminating and certainly worth commenting on. Even if those comments were wrong.

It's not the video, it's claiming the PGA swept something under the rug and asserting that the video shows "he cheated without any question". He's calling Perry a cheater and is accusing the PGA of being an accomplice.

[Leaguegolf]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

It's not the video, it's claiming the PGA swept something under the rug and asserting that the video shows "he cheated without any question". He's calling Perry a cheater and is accusing the PGA of being an accomplice.

Mr#'s wouldn't be the first one around here to raise a conspiracy theory.

[Johneli]

He's been playing golf long enough to know that when he patted down that tuft of grass his swing path to the ball would be improved. Even Feherty's voice hitched at the moment he tamped down the grass. IMO he willfully cheated.

When you see other guys checking the grass they take great pains to get away from the ball before making practice swings or addresses.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Leaguegolf

Mr#'s wouldn't be the first one around here to raise a conspiracy theory.

Conspiracy?

Did someone say conspiracy???



-JP

[Darth Fader]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

Shame he had to return

Thats more like it.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

I doesn't look good. I agree that you can't tell conclusively from the camera angle but, while the camera angle doesn't change, at first you can't see Perry's ball then after he tamps down the grass a couple of times you can see it very clearly.

That's true, but who's to say that the grass blocking the view of the ball wasn't a few inches behind it? It was a playoff and as such every single thing he does is going to be micro-analyzed so I don't believe that he would choose a moment such as that to improve his lie.

Like I said, if his fate rested solely on that particular video, I couldn't send him up the river for what was shown there.



-JP

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Wazmankg

I doesn't look good. I agree that you can't tell conclusively from the camera angle but, while the camera angle doesn't change, at first you can't see Perry's ball then after he tamps down the grass a couple of times you can see it very clearly.

That's true, but who's to say that the grass blocking the view of the ball wasn't a few inches behind it? It was a playoff and as such every single thing he does is going to be micro-analyzed so I don't believe that he would choose a moment such as that to improve his lie.

If you look at the very last frame you can see that the ball is sitting on a mild slope and that setting the club down anywhere behind the ball would move some grass and because of the slope, it would likely make the ball more visible from behind.

Also, he's entitled to ground his club behind the ball and if in so doing he causes some of that grass to "get out of his way", then that's what happens - there's nothing illegal about that. As long as the ball doesn't move I don't see any problem.

Like I said, if his fate rested solely on the evidence of that particular video, I couldn't send him up the river for what was shown there.



-JP

[straightshooter]

The biggest problem with the video 'evidence' is that the actual swing and swing-path aren't shown!

[mr3856a]

It's not surprising that some people would dismiss it out of hand ( Absolutely zero evidence in that video that Kenny cheated) and that some would feign insult at the mere accusation. However, nobody seems to be taking in the entirety of the evidence.

The main argument seems to be you either can't tell how far behind the ball he grounded the club (you can) or that it was somehow too far behind the ball to merit concern (it wasn't). What nobody has made mention of are the words of one David Feherty:

Kenny has got a lie – it's a down-grain lie but there is a big clump of down-grain grass behind it.

I'm not sure he can get the sand wedge on the ball here without playing some kind of muffled shot.

Now although you can clearly tell he grounds the club right behind the ball, some people choose not to see that. Now you've heard it as well.

Other comments:

John Paramor, chief referee of the European Tour, has watched the video more than 100 times, often in the company of other professional golfers. "The first thing they say when they see it is: 'The guy has done something bad,'" he says.

Rule 13.2 in the Rules of Golf: "A player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball ... by any of the following actions - pressing a club on the ground, moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed."

There is another bit I wish I could find to share but I can't. Several years ago in Golf World they had their annual caddy questionnaire of PGA Tour caddies, and one of the questions they asked was along the lines of "What is the most common rule violation you see?" One very popular answer was exactly what Kenny did: grounding your club behind the ball several times to tamp down the grass behind it.

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

It's not the video, it's claiming the PGA swept something under the rug and asserting that the video shows "he cheated without any question". He's calling Perry a cheater and is accusing the PGA of being an accomplice.

I know, the nerve, right? Here is what John Huggan, former Scottish Amateur Champion, former Senior Editor at Golf Digest, regular contributor to Golf World, and co-author of a multitude of books with David Leadbetter, Hank Haney, Gary McCord, etc. had to say:

Collectively, the PGA Tour brass are past masters at making bad news go away, even when the evidence to the contrary is seemingly incontrovertible. Take last week, when videotape came to light of just what Kenny Perry got up to on the first hole of a sudden death play-off for this year's FBR Open.

As soon as they had seen America's Ryder Cup hero and recent Masters choker in action, tour officials went into "damage control mode," insisting that Perry's tap-tap-tapping on what CBS commentator David Feherty had just called a "big clump of grass behind his ball" was not a breach of the rules.

Even the man beaten in the play-off, Charley Hoffman, wanted nothing to do with pointing out the obvious. "I have no problem with that," he gasped. "We all do it."

If what Hoffman claims is true, not only does golf at the highest level have a serious problem, but some education in the area of what does and does not constitute "improving one's lie" is badly needed.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by droogy33

I'll never forget what Lefty used to call Mr. #s. Cracks me up every time.

I stopped being insulted by comments like that in about 4th grade. I thought most people would stop finding them funny right around then, too.

[Bolt Fore]

Rule 13.2 in the Rules of Golf: "A player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball ... by any of the following actions - pressing a club on the ground, moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed."


You failed to mention that later on in that rule it states. However the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
in FAIRLY TAKING HIS STANCE
But it also says : the club may be grounded only lightly and must not be pressed on the ground.
The video shows Kenny grounding the club behind the ball with ONE hand on the club, lightly or pressing down you can't tell. But it is not taking a stance. This video can be interpeted either way, depends on what you want to believe.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

Rule 13.2 in the Rules of Golf: "A player must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of his ball ... by any of the following actions - pressing a club on the ground, moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed."


You failed to mention that later on in that rule it states. However the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
in FAIRLY TAKING HIS STANCE
But it also says : the club may be grounded only lightly and must not be pressed on the ground.
The video shows Kenny grounding the club behind the ball with ONE hand on the club, lightly or pressing down you can't tell. But it is not taking a stance.

You make two excellent points: a) he wasn't taking his stance, so it was a penalty, and b) he was clearly pressing on the ground. If he hadn't been, the grass wouldn't have been pushed down.

He was clearly improving his lie purposefully, and he succeeded. That thar's a penalty!

*edit: I just watched it again, and he is clearly pushing down on the grass. He's not letting the club rest, he's tapping it down.

[Bolt Fore]

I still think Kenny is one of the nicest if not THE nicest guy on tour and he had no intention of cheating. I just watched it again and I thought he was testing if he could get the club cleanly on the ball. The grass looked the same to me after he tested it and I couldn't see that he improved it at all.

[straightshooter]

Without seeing the actual swing, how can one conclude that Kenny grounded his club behind the ball!?

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

The grass looked the same to me after he tested it and I couldn't see that he improved it at all.

Hold on, let me get myself back together, that was pretty funny

Ok, now look at the ball at the 4 and 5 second mark of the video (well, you can't really, because you can't see the ball in the grass, if anything just a tiny, tiny speck of white). Now look at the ball at the 10 second mark and beyond, where fully half of the ball is visible.

I'm not saying Kenny isn't a nice guy, but that's improving your lie. BIG TIME. Don't let your personal feelings about Kenny color your judgment.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by straightshooter

Without seeing the actual swing, how can one conclude that Kenny grounded his club behind the ball!?

By looking at the video. I know I don't normally ground the club behind the ball in a direction in which I'm not playing and then take a few practice strokes in a direction in which I'm not playing. It's perfectly obvious from looking at the video that he's grounding the club behind the ball in the direction he intends to play the shot.

[Bolt Fore]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

I still think Kenny is one of the nicest if not THE nicest guy on tour and he had no intention of cheating. I just watched it again and I thought he was testing if he could get the club cleanly on the ball. The grass looked the same to me after he tested it and I couldn't see that he improved it at all.

Whoops just watched it again. Before he put the club near the ball I could hardly see it, afterwards I could see the ball clearly ,therefore he improved it. But I still think it was unintentional.

[mr3856a]

[quote=Bolt Fore;165826]

Originally Posted by Bolt Fore

I still think Kenny is one of the nicest if not THE nicest guy on tour and he had no intention of cheating. I just watched it again and I thought he was testing if he could get the club cleanly on the ball. The grass looked the same to me after he tested it and I couldn't see that he improved it at all.[/QUOTE
Whoops just watched it again. Before he put the club near the ball I could hardly see it, afterwards I could see the ball clearly ,therefore he improved it. But I still think it was unintentionable.

Unintentional or not isn't really relevant. He improved his lie and therefor deserves a penalty. I personally think it was completely intentional, but that's really neither here nor there.

[Johneli]

I like Kenny too. But this is business. We've all lived a long time on this planet and all of us are probably pretty good at recognizing impropriety. Let us not make excuses just because we like Kenny. The camera didn't move. You could barely see the ball when he laid his club behind the ball. All of a sudden BINGO! there it was when he was through. In plain sight. Maybe he didn't do it purposefully. In his defense he uses that same address on just about every shot, BUT the fact remains......he cheated, at least in my old eyes.

[mr3856a]

I guess me making this distinction doesn't make all the sense in the world seeing as I started this thread entitled "Kenny Perry Cheating in the FBR Open Playoff" (got you to read it, though, didn't it? ), but there is a distinction to be made between cheating and breaking a rule. Whether he cheated (which I think requires intent) is a matter for discussion; whether or not he broke a rule isn't.

[straightshooter]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

By looking at the video. I know I don't normally ground the club behind the ball in a direction in which I'm not playing and then take a few practice strokes in a direction in which I'm not playing. It's perfectly obvious from looking at the video that he's grounding the club behind the ball in the direction he intends to play the shot.

It is not obvious to me. What you might do doesn't matter. Only what Perry did on his actual swing matters. There is only a rules violation if the clubhead traveled in the area of his 'yard-work' during the actual swing. Why is the necessary evidence missing from the video?

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by straightshooter

It is not obvious to me. What you might do doesn't matter. Only what Perry did on his actual swing matters. There is only a rules violation if the clubhead traveled in the area of his 'yard-work' during the actual swing. Why is the necessary evidence missing from the video?

It isn't.

[Leaguegolf]

From that camera angle Perry did a lot of chopping around behind the ball with his club. If his club was indeed right behind the ball he was certainly risking causing the ball to move. This, and the quick glimpse of the actual lie at the end of the video leads me to believe that there's more here than meets the eye. We all know the camera can, and does, lie at times. Given the circumstances of having all eyes on him and the fact that no one called him on it at the time, I'm leaning toward this video being a simple case of a bad camera angle not telling the whole story.

[JimSomebody]

Tell ya what... if it's ME in that situation, I don't do ANYthing that looks like I might be messing with the lie.

It does look to me is if he tamped down grass behind the ball and his situation was improved as a result. He also seemed to get self-conscious right afterwards, first doing some more messing around, then calling on a rules official to come in and make a ruling on who was away (I saw a longer clip elsewhere on Youtube). Not saying that move was a smoke screen or anything....

Seriously, it appears to me that he did improve the lie, but I'm not sure he did it with the intention of cheating. I think he might have had a momentary lapse of carelessness, then realized, "Oh no, that might have been a bad thing!"

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by JimSomebody

Tell ya what... if it's ME in that situation, I don't do ANYthing that looks like I might be messing with the lie.

It does look to me is if he tamped down grass behind the ball and his situation was improved as a result. He also seemed to get self-conscious right afterwards, first doing some more messing around, then calling on a rules official to come in and make a ruling on who was away (I saw a longer clip elsewhere on Youtube). Not saying that move was a smoke screen or anything....

Seriously, it appears to me that he did improve the lie, but I'm not sure he did it with the intention of cheating. I think he might have had a momentary lapse of carelessness, then realized, "Oh no, that might have been a bad thing!"

I'd love to see the longer video if you can happen to find it, Jim. And again, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter what he intended to do. He broke a rule. Penalty. Incorrect scorecard. You get my meaning.

[PA PLAYA]

Originally Posted by JimSomebody

Tell ya what... if it's ME in that situation, I don't do ANYthing that looks like I might be messing with the lie.

It does look to me is if he tamped down grass behind the ball and his situation was improved as a result. He also seemed to get self-conscious right afterwards, first doing some more messing around, then calling on a rules official to come in and make a ruling on who was away (I saw a longer clip elsewhere on Youtube). Not saying that move was a smoke screen or anything....

Seriously, it appears to me that he did improve the lie, but I'm not sure he did it with the intention of cheating. I think he might have had a momentary lapse of carelessness, then realized, "Oh no, that might have been a bad thing!"

If that is the case, that the realization hit him that he might've done something contrary to the rules yet didn't summons a rule official -- then he did cheat. At that point he has an obligation to call himself out and incur the penalty. Because to not do so is to assume that cheating is okay as long as no one catches it, which we all know isn't the case.

But what we've been presented in this 15 second snipet is much too generic to provide any real incriminating evidence. Had the camera angle been zoomed in to the side of the player, there would be more definitive proof. And if that evidence is available, I would love to see it. But from this angle, it is nothing more than speculation.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by PA PLAYA

And if that evidence is available, I would love to see it. But from this angle, it is nothing more than speculation.

Aside from the fact that you can clearly see him improve his lie...

[PA PLAYA]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Aside from the fact that you can clearly see him improve his lie...

I think it's definitely worthy of discussion, but again -- from that angle we don't know exactly where his clubhead was as he was assessing the lie. I'm not saying that he didn't improve his lie, not at all. I'm just stating that we can't tell from that angle if he was 3 inches behind the ball or 12 inches behind the ball when he soled his club during his assessment.

A close-up side-on view would likely reveal the truth. And for all that we know the PGA had the side-on footage angle and determined he didn't improve his lie.

To assume, however, that he improved his lie and that the PGA opted to cover it up is far fetched. The players would then question the credibility of the PGA tour's officiating review board and that would present a much bigger snafu than just telling a guy that he broke a rule and strip him of his win retroactively.

Until sufficient evidence is presented from a better angle, then I'm inclined to give the player (and the PGA rules officials) the benefit of the doubt.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by PA PLAYA

I think it's definitely worthy of discussion, but again -- from that angle we don't know exactly where his clubhead was as he was assessing the lie. I'm not saying that he didn't improve his lie, not at all. I'm just stating that we can't tell from that angle if he was 3 inches behind the ball or 12 inches behind the ball when he soled his club during his assessment.

A close-up side-on view would likely reveal the truth. And for all that we know the PGA had the side-on footage angle and determined he didn't improve his lie.

To assume, however, that he improved his lie and that the PGA opted to cover it up is far fetched. The players would then question the credibility of the PGA tour's officiating review board and that would present a much bigger snafu than just telling a guy that he broke a rule and strip him of his win retroactively.

Until sufficient evidence is presented from a better angle, then I'm inclined to give the player (and the PGA rules officials) the benefit of the doubt.

Well, you and I just have different standards of evidence. Listen to Faherty: "big clump of... grass behind it... not sure if he can get the sand wedge on the ball." Does it look to you like after the 10 second mark of the video that he's going to have any trouble getting his sand wedge on the ball? It sure doesn't look like it'll be a problem to me. *edit: Listen to Faherty's voice from about 8 seconds through 11-12 seconds of the video. He hesitates and almost stutters - he knows exactly what he just saw happen.

In fact, you can even hear Faherty break his train of thought as he watches ol' Kenny push down the grass behind the ball he was just describing.

Twelve inches behind the ball? That must be some tall grass. Just look at the 3 or 4 second mark and the 10 second mark and after and tell yourself you don't see an improvement in the lie.

[PA PLAYA]

Okay, I will look at it again.