Shafts

[RobinHunter]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

You are the clubmaker and this is your role and I respect you for it...my role is to point out as Stuart S. does that despite whether his mind is made up or not, he should unmake it and go hit some different setups...

My goodness, that would be an awful lot of combinations that he would need to hit. By the time he gets done, next year's models will be out and he'll have to start all over again - and he still won't have a driver.

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

...everything is just an educated guess as to what will work for you and seems a bit funny that you wouldn't take the time out to demo a few after all of the effort that you have put into your search.

One thing that should be noted is that these particular clubmakers are experts in their craft. This isn't the first time they have done this. If you give them your swing characteristics along with what you're looking to achieve, I would place strong faith in any recommendation they give.

[Bigvivec]

JP...that was a nice post and many valid points were made...but let's take a look at your bag...

What's In My Bag:
Driver: Nike SQ Tour, 9.5 deg. / NV 75X
3-Wood: Nike SQ3+ Strong 13 deg./TT EI-70X Tour
Hybrid: Snake Eyes Tour, 18 deg. / GD YS-9X
Irons 3-PW: Snake Eyes 600C All lofts +/-2 deg. 'Hot' DG X-100 all soft-stepped 1/2".
Wedges: 51 deg.: Snake Eyes 600B Wedge 56 deg.: Snake Eyes 653 TM
(I custom grind the bounce on all my wedges)
Putter: Odyssey Dual Force #2
Ball: Titleist Pro V1

Not exactly Kmart clubs my friend...custom grinding and soft stepping...custom lofts!?!?!? You have one of the most worked over bags on the site and you go on a rant about the indian not the arrow!?!?!? Let someone else take a little pleasure in building a set that suits their attributes as you obviously have...the clubs won't hit the balls for you but it makes it easier...when will the rest of the world qualify to play a set as fitted as yours?

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

...Not exactly Kmart clubs my friend...custom grinding and soft stepping...custom lofts!?!?!? You have one of the most worked over bags on the site and you go on a rant about the indian not the arrow!?!?!?...

Yes but I already know how to swing properly, (or close to it) because I put in the time and the hours of practice to make that a reality and I am simply fine tuning myself. If you look closely, you'll see that I wrote, in part, "...but all of those things amount to fractional improvements in the hands of an average player..." The operative word here is "average".
To be sure, there are many people who have actually taken the time to hone a proper swing and are now looking to fine tune that swing by adding components which take advantage of attributes, strengths, weaknesses etc. But the yeoman's work has been done and the parameters are small and more importantly they are quantifiable because there is a basically sound swing to work with.

There's nothing inherently wrong with building a set of clubs that suits someone's attributes so that they can simply have some fun. But the problem I see with the "fitting frenzy" and the equipment infatuation is that a person is more likely to take their lousy swing to a fitter and have equipment built around it. So let's say that someone has a slice problem and an over-the-top swing along with balance issues.
In years past, it would have been suggested that they address the fundamental problems in their swing before spending money on custom equipment. Today, it's just the opposite. Today they're fitted to work around such glaring flaws with things like draw biased clubs, hooked faces, whippy or weak-tipped shafts to get the ball to snap back to the left - all in an effort to compensate for a flawed technique.

Now, if all someone wants is to be able to smack their way around a course a couple of days a month, then by all means, get whatever you need to help with that. But you know as well as I do that most of the time, the people who are spending small fortunes on equipment and technology are doing so in an effort to someday hit it like Tiger, no matter how far-fetched that may seem at the time. The equipment manufacturers are all too happy to feed this fantasy with a lot of band-aids and quick fixes which ultimately never bear fruit and result in more purchases of more band-aids.

Few people have what I call an "index point", or a reference point to which they can return when their swings go awry. This is because they never learned a proper swing in the first place. I have that index point. I know what my basic setup is, I know where the ball should be, I know how my hips should look, my arms, my shoulders and so on. When My swing goes out of whack, I can go to the range, assume the basic setup position - the index point, and assess what I'm doing wrongly and make corrections. When tuning an engine, for instance, you need to know what the basic setup is because if you make an incorrect adjustment, you have the ability to set things back to "start" and try again.
With a sound fundamental swing, any adjustments, whether in technique and/or equipment can be assessed against that "index point" to gauge their value. But if one has no fundamental point of reference, then it's the same as trying to tune an engine without having any basic specifications. How would one know what helps or hurts if one doesn't know what their basic "shop specs" are?

And suppose that someone spends many hundreds or even thousands of dollars on equipment designed to compensate for flaws and then decides to take lessons to correct those flaws? Once they correct the flaws, it's likely that the band-aid equipment they've spend all that money on is no longer useful and must be replaced --- again.

Like I said, I agree that if all anyone wants out of the game is to knock a ball around for a few hours a month then get whatever you need to do that to your satisfaction. But if you're serious about improving and serious about the game, then spend the time and money to establish a sound set of fundamentals and a place to return to when things go off kilter. Stop treating the symptoms and work on a cure. Then any money spent on equipment will be spent wisely, and will likely produce quantifiable results instead of simply throwing money out the window on guesses and quick-fixes.


-JP

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Yes but I already know how to swing properly, (or close to it) because I put in the time and the hours of practice to make that a reality and I am simply fine tuning myself. If you look closely, you'll see that I wrote, in part, "...but all of those things amount to fractional improvements in the hands of an average player..." The operative word here is "average".
To be sure, there are many people who have actually taken the time to hone a proper swing and are now looking to fine tune that swing by adding components which take advantage of attributes, strengths, weaknesses etc. But the yeoman's work has been done and the parameters are small and more importantly they are quantifiable because there is a basically sound swing to work with.

There's nothing inherently wrong with building a set of clubs that suits someone's attributes so that they can simply have some fun. But the problem I see with the "fitting frenzy" and the equipment infatuation is that a person is more likely to take their lousy swing to a fitter and have equipment built around it. So let's say that someone has a slice problem and an over-the-top swing along with balance issues.
In years past, it would have been suggested that they address the fundamental problems in their swing before spending money on custom equipment. Today, it's just the opposite. Today they're fitted to work around such glaring flaws with things like draw biased clubs, hooked faces, whippy or weak-tipped shafts to get the ball to snap back to the left - all in an effort to compensate for a flawed technique.

Now, if all someone wants is to be able to smack their way around a course a couple of days a month, then by all means, get whatever you need to help with that. But you know as well as I do that most of the time, the people who are spending small fortunes on equipment and technology are doing so in an effort to someday hit it like Tiger, no matter how far-fetched that may seem at the time. The equipment manufacturers are all too happy to feed this fantasy with a lot of band-aids and quick fixes which ultimately never bear fruit and result in more purchases of more band-aids.

Few people have what I call an "index point", or a reference point to which they can return when their swings go awry. This is because they never learned a proper swing in the first place. I have that index point. I know what my basic setup is, I know where the ball should be, I know how my hips should look, my arms, my shoulders and so on. When My swing goes out of whack, I can go to the range, assume the basic setup position - the index point, and assess what I'm doing wrongly and make corrections. When tuning an engine, for instance, you need to know what the basic setup is because if you make an incorrect adjustment, you have the ability to set things back to "start" and try again.
With a sound fundamental swing, any adjustments, whether in technique and/or equipment can be assessed against that "index point" to gauge their value. But if one has no fundamental point of reference, then it's the same as trying to tune an engine without having any basic specifications. How would one know what helps or hurts if one doesn't know what their basic "shop specs" are?

And suppose that someone spends many hundreds or even thousands of dollars on equipment designed to compensate for flaws and then decides to take lessons to correct those flaws? Once they correct the flaws, it's likely that the band-aid equipment they've spend all that money on is no longer useful and must be replaced --- again.

Like I said, I agree that if all anyone wants out of the game is to knock a ball around for a few hours a month then get whatever you need to do that to your satisfaction. But if you're serious about improving and serious about the game, then spend the time and money to establish a sound set of fundamentals and a place to return to when things go off kilter. Stop treating the symptoms and work on a cure. Then any money spent on equipment will be spent wisely, and will likely produce quantifiable results instead of simply throwing money out the window on guesses and quick-fixes.


-JP

When you put it like that it makes perfect sense...I'll buy that!!! It is true that I don't really understand how a beginner can be custom fit in any way other than in a static fitting as a dyanmic fitting where they would swing wouldn't yield any quantifiable results as the chances of two swings being similar are not terribly high...I also agree that there really isn't that much separating quality golf clubs regardless of brand and shaft...I didn't switch to graphite shafts in drivers until 2 years ago and really haven't lost much distance from the steel...and as a developing golfer, you will probably learn to play with whatever you are given...Harvey Pennick frowned on the modern custom fittng trends in one of his books, saying that standard length, loft and lie should be about right for most people...my personal experience I didn't start to hit the ball better until I started to practice and drill with purpose, take a few lessons and put an effort into the learning process...new clubs didn't do it for me, BUT they sure didn't hurt either...considering that fittings are thrown in for just about everything you might consider buying in a golf store, I would wait for a good swing day, go down and get fit with the swing that I am working with so that I can enjoy the game now and get re-fit in the future for some more clubs should I ever find that I am being limited by my current set...clubs don't have to be forever, and considering the amount that are being made, there is something for every kind of player...I don't believe that regardless of ultimate desires, which might include hitting the ball like Tiger, everyone should be playing nonforgiving equipment and working on building great technique...I saw some honking big clubs with fat toplines and a fair bit of offset in tour players bags last weekend and they had pretty good swings...I understand that to really play this game well requires lots of work on form and technique, but for those with less time, less talent, or just generally inclined to more forgiving equipment, who am I to judge? There was one player in the pro tournament that I went to that looked like he had never seen anyone swing a golf club before, but he was on a string of 4 birdies...it worked for him, and I am willing to bet that he had equipement that fit that ugly swing...in the end it is really up to the individual and while I do agree that too much importance is being placed on the fitting process whose effects really won't be apparent until a solid, repeating swing is working, I also have seen firsthand about twice a week how someone can consistently shoot in the mid to low 70s with a decidedly unenviable swing...he (my regular partner) knows what to expect out of his swing and plays to his strengths and it works for him...
Most people don't have any chance of swinging like a professional regardless of the equipment they use...but some of the technology makes the game accessible for some that might otherwise be lost on the wayside...I think everyone should get every edge that they can, golf is hard enough...

[JPsuff]

.


Bigvivec,

I think you've cracked it!

What I've been dancing around and what you've pointed out is the basic premise of repeatability.

In your example of your friend with the "unenviable" swing, though not perfect or apparently even desireable, his swing is obviously repeatable. I think that any repeatable swing - pretty or not, can be used as an "index point" as long as it remains repeatable. That being the case, a person can then be fitted and equipment can be customized and desireable results can be obtained.

I guess what I've been referring to are people who are doing something differently virtually every time they swing a club. They have no reference point and as such cannot really benefit from equipment specs or fittings because there's nothing to base specifications upon. So the common denominator is for people to establish something they can consistently reproduce before venturing into the world of technology.



-JP

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by SolidRockGolf

He forgot to mention he was talking about the V2

Indicup was probably reading my post and replied to the originator of the thread. The ust proforce gold may be 9 year old technology but the one I have with a 320 cc head is great. They just don't make it anymore. I still love my speeder 757 x-stiff tour spec but for a cheaper shaft I think the gold was great. I was going to get a diamana blue board from a gentleman and although it was a stiff it frequencied out as a senior flex. So much for technology.

[chopdonkey]

Originally Posted by coralpro

Indicup was probably reading my post and replied to the originator of the thread. The ust proforce gold may be 9 year old technology but the one I have with a 320 cc head is great. They just don't make it anymore. I still love my speeder 757 x-stiff tour spec but for a cheaper shaft I think the gold was great. I was going to get a diamana blue board from a gentleman and although it was a stiff it frequencied out as a senior flex. So much for technology.

The NV in my cobra f speed is marked S but frequencied at a senior flex - it would be nice for manufacturers to be consistent in their labeling of flexes.

[SolidRockGolf]

Originally Posted by chopdonkey

The NV in my cobra f speed is marked S but frequencied at a senior flex - it would be nice for manufacturers to be consistent in their labeling of flexes.

One thing to add is that they make stock shafts softer so the golfing community will possibly hit their drives longer and they also know that a large ratio of men pick S-Flex because its the MAN thing to do... Now they usually freq out to a soft S or an R but I have never heard of an S coming out to an A.

Thats one of the many reason why I always encourage reshafts when someone is using a standard stock shaft.

Note: Butt frequency is not always the right way to test the flex of a shaft. Its just the most simple. Example... If you take an AccuFLEX VS339 which is a Soft butt, mid body, and stiff tip you will find that the shaft is very very stable and handles aggressive swings better than smooth ones... but if you freq out an S you will find that it can come up to an exact R. Now if you Profile the shaft, which is test atleast 7 sections of the shaft you will find that the tip comes out to around an X compared to other shafts.

Hope this tid bit of informations helps.

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by SolidRockGolf

One thing to add is that they make stock shafts softer so the golfing community will possibly hit their drives longer and they also know that a large ratio of men pick S-Flex because its the MAN thing to do... Now they usually freq out to a soft S or an R but I have never heard of an S coming out to an A.

Thats one of the many reason why I always encourage reshafts when someone is using a standard stock shaft.

Note: Butt frequency is not always the right way to test the flex of a shaft. Its just the most simple. Example... If you take an AccuFLEX VS339 which is a Soft butt, mid body, and stiff tip you will find that the shaft is very very stable and handles aggressive swings better than smooth ones... but if you freq out an S you will find that it can come up to an exact R. Now if you Profile the shaft, which is test atleast 7 sections of the shaft you will find that the tip comes out to around an X compared to other shafts.

Hope this tid bit of informations helps.

The "s" that frequencied out to be an "a" was from a friend that has been a clubfitter and teaching pro for lots of years and I trust his judgement. I was kind of surprised to think Diamana would have that bad of quality control especially for a 300 dollar shaft. I have heard that most manufacturers have a fairly wide variety of tolerances in shafts so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised. That's why many people say if you demo a club and like it's flight then buy that club and let them demo another because the two clubs although they are supposed to be identical will probably not be.