Putting alignment lines...

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

In that instance you said people resorted to it out of a lack of confidence:

I pointed out there must be a problem with their confidence in their ability to find their line or there would be no need to look for an answer. No different than people changing putters because the other one quit working.

That's absolutely not the case at all. I'm really not sure what your point of contention is in this case.

It is IMHO, but you disagree. That's your opinion and I have mine.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by coralpro

I pointed out there must be a problem with their confidence in their ability to find their line or there would be no need to look for an answer. No different than people changing putters because the other one quit working.

But your assumption here is that I've tried one, it didn't work, I lost confidence in it and at some point resorted to this, like it's some inferior alternative to the "real" way.

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

But your assumption here is that I've tried one, it didn't work, I lost confidence in it and at some point resorted to this, like it's some inferior alternative to the "real" way.

Wrong again. I tried it to see if there was something to be gained. If anything I found the reverse because one tends to try an insure they hit the line perpendicular. The only reason I see a need for it is if a person has an occular problem and has trouble picking up lines when standing over the ball. I don't have that problem so it makes it difficult to rationalize with someone that does but I have left leniency in my opinion due to that reason.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by coralpro

Wrong again. I tried it to see if there was something to be gained. If anything I found the reverse because one tends to try an insure they hit the line perpendicular. The only reason I see a need for it is if a person has an occular problem and has trouble picking up lines when standing over the ball. I don't have that problem so it makes it difficult to rationalize with someone that does but I have left leniency in my opinion due to that reason.

Ah, so someone that does it differently than you has an "occular problem"... rangerollup:

I wonder, chances are 97 out of 100 that Pelz has studied this issue, I wonder if he has publicized a scientific opinion on the subject.

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

Ah, so someone that does it differently than you has an "occular problem"... rangerollup:

I wonder, chances are 97 out of 100 that Pelz has studied this issue, I wonder if he has publicized a scientific opinion on the subject.

After some of his "SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH", I would question any of his results. I hope his time at NASA wasn't in QC or RELIABILITY or that might explain some shuttle mishaps.

[OnePutt]

Coralpro; you completely miss the point of using a line on the ball. When you get over your ball, you have to look at your intended line, then align the club to that line, then make a correct length stroke to roll the ball the correct distance. That makes for 3 things you have to do when you get over your ball. By aligning my ball with my intended line before I step up to the ball. I only have 2 things left to do. Align the face of my putter to the line one the ball. then make the correct length stroke. Seems pretty simple to me. If you have 3 things to do, and I only have 2 things to do only over the ball. YOU have 1 more thing to get wrong than I do. Odds are in my favor I'd say. And YES, I still have to make a good stroke if I want the ball to go in the cup. BUT YOU CAN SAY THAT ABOUT EVERY STROKE YOU EVER MAKE IN GOLF. So why mention it now? If you want to throw in all the possible things that can go wrong with every shot and use is as a reason not to aim your ball, or setup up correctly at address, WHY do you bother play golf ? We all know that we all miss more often then we make a perfect swing or shot. so why aim at all? Why do you align your feet for each shot? Why bother if you KNOW so many things can go wrong and you have to make a good stroke?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe in setting up correctly every time, and then trying to make a good swing or stroke every time. Doesn't happen every time, but I still aim, and I still do everything I can to succeed. It sounds like you're all ready to fail, not succeed. Talk about NEGATIVE thinking. Some of you guys are perfect examples of negative thinking. All ready to fail. Feel free to continue with that if you want, but don't tell me or anyone else to go down the same negative road.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by OnePutt

Coralpro; you completely miss the point of using a line on the ball. When you get over your ball, you have to look at your intended line, then align the club to that line, then make a correct length stroke to roll the ball the correct distance. That makes for 3 things you have to do when you get over your ball. By aligning my ball with my intended line before I step up to the ball. I only have 2 things left to do. Align the face of my putter to the line one the ball. then make the correct length stroke. Seems pretty simple to me. If you have 3 things to do, and I only have 2 things to do only over the ball. YOU have 1 more thing to get wrong than I do. Odds are in my favor I'd say. And YES, I still have to make a good stroke if I want the ball to go in the cup.

That's exactly what I've given up trying to explain.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by OnePutt

Coralpro; you completely miss the point of using a line on the ball. When you get over your ball, you have to look at your intended line, then align the club to that line, then make a correct length stroke to roll the ball the correct distance. That makes for 3 things you have to do when you get over your ball. By aligning my ball with my intended line before I step up to the ball. I only have 2 things left to do. Align the face of my putter to the line one the ball. then make the correct length stroke. Seems pretty simple to me. If you have 3 things to do, and I only have 2 things to do only over the ball. YOU have 1 more thing to get wrong than I do. Odds are in my favor I'd say....

You're still doing the same 3 steps, just doing the first one from a different position. Those who use a line on the ball squat down, look across their ball and down what they think the putting line is, and then try to align that little 1 inch or so line up with the putting line they determined. And there's not a thing in the world wrong with using that technique if it works for you. It's also never been proven that it is the best technique overall.

I have personally tried it, and found it takes me longer and lessens my accuracy. It is also tough on my knees trying to squat or kneel down and place the ball on the line. I find myself getting over the ball aligning the putter to the ball and then when I look to the hole to gauge distance I start noticing if the alignment is right. I found this especially true on sloped greens with breaking putts. So if it looked wrong, I'd squat back down, mark the ball, align the mark again, stand up, get putter aligned to ball, etc. Without using a line, I (that's ME, personally) can read the green as usual (same as with a line or not) and determine the line, place my putter behind the ball and aligned along the line I chose, then take my stance. Once over the ball and checking for distance, if I notice any alignment error I can immediately adjust the putter and my stance, and make the stroke.

I have found this works great for me, and have yet to play with anyone using a line on their ball who can consistently putt better than I do, especially when it comes to making putts over 10 feet. When I get paired up with anyone, usually the first thing about my game they comment on is my ability to read greens and make putts. Unless I get lucky and crush a great drive off the first tee! I played one day with an older gentleman who said he'd been a teaching pro at a small course in upstate New York before retiring to Florida. He asked my handicap, and I told him I don't have one officially, but average in the low 90s. After about 6 holes, I'd already made 3 putts over 15 feet, all of them breakers and to save par, and he told me,"Son, you putt like a scratch golfer, but make up for it with the rest of your game!"

[Bulls9999]

I agree with mr3856a, that a putting line on a ball DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH LACK OF CONFIDENCE.... it is simply to aid in retaining visual representaton of where the line is while you are contemplating other things during a putt like speed you'll need, force of the stroke, and smoothness of stroke. How often have you heard "I was concentrating so much on the line, I lost track of the speed I needed to get it there". The line (for me) is to facilitate the direction of the chosen line so that I can concentrate on other things (speed, stroke) without having to also dilute those thoughts with 'line of the putt'.

[quote=mr3856a;116531][quote=coralpro;116528]But 1 stated.

a good solid stroke with the face aligned

It has nothing to do with confidence. How many times do you watch players line up on full shots completely misaligned to where they think they're aligned? Happens all the time. I use a spot in front of my ball on full shots, but on the green you don't always have one (and actually it's best if you don't have imperfections in the green).

I can promise you if I use my gimicky line to line up 20 putts and we have another golfer eyeball it 20 times, I'll be lined up correctly 20 times out of 20. Do you think the other player will be aligned dead on 100% of the time? I'd take that bet any day. I also won't be the one with doubt in my head about the line standing over the putt.

Like I said, I see no reason not to take a variable out of the equation.

[mr3856a]

Originally Posted by GolfSavage

You're still doing the same 3 steps, just doing the first one from a different position.

I don't see how. I'm standing over my putt with no question what my aim point is. I've taken that completely out of the equation. You can say it until your blue in the face, but when you're standing over a putt eyeballing it, that's an entire period of guestimation and uncertainty I don't have.

I'm just going to stop repeating myself in this thread, I've said the same thing about 80 times now.

[GolfSavage]

Originally Posted by mr3856a

I don't see how. I'm standing over my putt with no question what my aim point is. I've taken that completely out of the equation. You can say it until your blue in the face, but when you're standing over a putt eyeballing it, that's an entire period of guestimation and uncertainty I don't have.

I'm just going to stop repeating myself in this thread, I've said the same thing about 80 times now.

Oneputt listed three steps:

A good putt takes 3 things. 1, a good solid stroke with the face aligned. 2, good pace, or length of stroke. 3, proper aim.

What step are you skipping?

You're fulfilling number 3 (hopefully) by aligning the line on your ball with the intended line of your putt. You're still taking that step, just in a different way.

In my case, I'm aligning my putter with the line through the ball. I don't care if I can see the logo, the alignment line, the number, my ID mark, etc on the ball. My putter has the three lines that tell me the ball is centered on the sweet spot and the head is perpendicular to the line I want to send the ball along. After that the ball doesn't matter, it's like it isn't even there.

Your way works for you, which is great. In fact I recommend it for anyone who cannot visualize the line and "see" their putter alignment from the putting stance. Putting is probably the most individualized part of the game in regards to how it should be done. I would never suppose to tell someone they had to do it my way, from alignment to follow-through, and I would never take advice on putting from anyone who claimed their way was the best.

[Fourputt]

First, in case you haven't figured it out yet, arguing with Coral Pro is like playing tug of war with a puppy... the harder you pull, the harder he pulls back, and he never gets tired of it.

I personally don't believe that using a line improves one's alignment, but I don't have any problem with anyone who does believe it. I regularly play with guys who use that method... some of them are good putters, but I've rarely met one who putts any better than I do. In fact some of them are terrible putters, and will do almost anything to try and improve. I have played with guys who putt better than I do, but not because of any line on the ball, they just happen to be good putters.

Good putters are good because they have good fundamentals, and a line on the ball doesn't change that. Bad putters are bad because they don't have good fundamentals, and a line on the ball won't change that either.

[Bulls9999]

Well, i've never 'lost my putting stroke', although my driver has given me fits at times, my long irons have given me grey hair (or more of it)...but my putter is like my trusty dog....always by my side!! Sometimes even when I don't make a 15-foot putt, I'm still happy when I can acknowledge it was a good putt that just rolled over the edge of the hole and is sitting inches past it. Unlike some folks I've watched that send the ball as far past the hole as they started out, not just once, but several times....now that would drive me nuts.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I think that the one thing we've confirmed in this thread is that if your putting plan or routine gives you confidence, you will be probably be a fairly good putter. Regardless of whether you use a line on the ball, or a spot on your putting line, or just wing it, confident putters are generally good putters, and good putters are confident putters. The two go hand in hand, and actually build on each other. But lose that confidence and a good putter can become a basket case overnight.

You just have to find what works for you and let your putter do the talking.

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

Without a line on the ball, any "second guesses" can be corrected as they always have; by shifting your stance a bit and going from there. When on earth did a game largely comprised of feel become so mechanical? At what point did we stop trusting our judgment and give in to the slide rule?

...start second guessing while standing over a putt, line or no line, you better back off or just go ahead and add a stroke...never a good move...

[Bigvivec]

Tiger lines his up (with a line) and he's pretty good...it is a case of different strokes (pun intended) for different folks, but I don't buy the "good putters don't use the line" theory for a second...conversley, just putting a line on your ball does not a good putter make...

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

Tiger lines his up (with a line) and he's pretty good...it is a case of different strokes (pun intended) for different folks, but I don't buy the "good putters don't use the line" theory for a second...conversley, just putting a line on your ball does not a good putter make...

That's basically the gist of this whole argument.

Tiger was a good putter long before alignment lines became en vogue. If you watch video of his amateur days, he was dropping putts from some unbelievable distances and under tremendous pressure and there wasn't an alignment line to be found anywhere.

And what I meant by "second guessing" was that if, during a setup, you see that the putter isn't quite trained on whatever intermediate target you've chosen, you could simply adjust your stance until it was. With alignment lines, if you sense that the line isn't pointing at the target, it's difficult if not impossible (visually) to simply adjust the putterhead's aim while staring at that line, because even though the head is now aimed correctly, the line will still be pointing in a different direction.
This of course means that you'd have to step away, reset the ball and then go through the whole setup all over again.

That is the single biggest reason why I don't like lines. If I sense that the ball is lined up incorrectly then I'd have to step out and reset the ball. But knowing that it's "possible" to incorrectly aim the ball (line), that would be just one more "nagging doubt" to have to deal with.

Lines on the ball are a relatively new thing to play with. Using lines on a ball has only been around for a few years but, like everything else in golf, if the pro's do it, you can bet the rent that every hacker in the country will be doing whatever "it" is in a matter of days. Lines may work for a handful of people, but there is no "science" or other proof that they actually work any better than not using them.

To me, there is probably some rhyme and reason to using them for some, but they're essentially a fad for most. Put it this way, if Tiger decided to stop using lines tomorrow and went back to a plain white ball, people would be tripping over themselves to get the 409 out from under the sink to clean the lines off of their own golf balls in a heartbeat.


C'mon folks, admit it. You know I'm right.


-JP

[Bulls9999]

Well, although I use alignment lines on my golf balls, I don't really 'use/need them' for putts of less than 15 feet. I'm using them for long putts on our greens. The greens on my home course are relatively newly (3 years back) renovated and are all 3-level bent grass greens, about 10 greens have 3-4 feet elevation difference between highest and lowest plateau levels, about 3 others have about ~2-ft difference, and the remaining ones are relatively flat with only ~1-ft of elevation change.

I use the 'alignment line' to help set up and get the intended path out of the way so I can concentrate on speed, which is so important if you want to get within 5-6 feet from 30 feet away with possibly 2 elevation changes of 2-3 feet to negotiate.

On relatively flat greens that I've played on many resort courses, heck, don't need a line on my ball to putt from anywhere.

[Bigvivec]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

That's basically the gist of this whole argument.

Tiger was a good putter long before alignment lines became en vogue. If you watch video of his amateur days, he was dropping putts from some unbelievable distances and under tremendous pressure and there wasn't an alignment line to be found anywhere.

And what I meant by "second guessing" was that if, during a setup, you see that the putter isn't quite trained on whatever intermediate target you've chosen, you could simply adjust your stance until it was. With alignment lines, if you sense that the line isn't pointing at the target, it's difficult if not impossible (visually) to simply adjust the putterhead's aim while staring at that line, because even though the head is now aimed correctly, the line will still be pointing in a different direction.
This of course means that you'd have to step away, reset the ball and then go through the whole setup all over again.

That is the single biggest reason why I don't like lines. If I sense that the ball is lined up incorrectly then I'd have to step out and reset the ball. But knowing that it's "possible" to incorrectly aim the ball (line), that would be just one more "nagging doubt" to have to deal with.

Lines on the ball are a relatively new thing to play with. Using lines on a ball has only been around for a few years but, like everything else in golf, if the pro's do it, you can bet the rent that every hacker in the country will be doing whatever "it" is in a matter of day