Generating more Lag??

[ringin]

I've been thinking about my swing and I really wish I was generating more lag to harness some extra power. Being a lefty, I look to Phil's swing quite often for inspiration and he generates an INSANE amount of lag. I definitely don't want to get the club back past parallel like he does, but I could use some drills to get that whip. I know these guys are professionals, and I don't expect to duplicate their results, but I'd like to work on this. Any thoughts or suggestions.

Take a look at what I mean... YouTube - Phil Mickelson Driver SwingVision (Face On)

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by ringin

I've been thinking about my swing and I really wish I was generating more lag to harness some extra power. Being a lefty, I look to Phil's swing quite often for inspiration and he generates an INSANE amount of lag. I definitely don't want to get the club back past parallel like he does, but I could use some drills to get that whip. I know these guys are professionals, and I don't expect to duplicate their results, but I'd like to work on this. Any thoughts or suggestions.

Take a look at what I mean... YouTube - Phil Mickelson Driver SwingVision (Face On)

You know, by now the golf swing has been so over analyzed that we are starting to point to things which occur naturally and are giving them some special meaning where none really exists.
I blame this on the advancements in high speed photography and the high resolution at which it's presented where we can now see ultra-slow-motion views of a players' knuckle hairs moving in the wind as he swings towards the ball.
I think the "lag" is one of those things that no one really cared much about until guys like Phil and Sergio were photographed in this new nose-hair resolution and someone said, "Wow! Look at that lag!" and then set about to figure out how that could be made important enough to write articles about.

Never mind that the greatest golfers in history had no more lag in their swings than that which was normally associated with a good golf swing, or that Tiger himself has a rather ordinary lag in his. No, Phil and Sergio have unusually pronounced lags so that must mean something. Of course the fact that Phil has only three majors in an almost twenty year career and Sergio has...well...none, or that the relatively lag-less Tiger has 13 in about half that time doesn't seem to matter.

I'm sure that when the lag has been talked to death, they'll come up with something else to analyze. One day, while watching the "Biz Hub, yadda, yadda, yadda...", someone will point out that on his downswing, Bubba Boom Boom demonstrated a rather pronounced flexing of his Obliquus capitis inferior muscle, and after they've explained to us just what that is, everyone will be on the phone to their personal trainers asking how they can get theirs to do that as well.

Your lag is YOUR LAG. Whether it's very pronounced or hardly noticeable, it is what it is and it happens naturally. Just work on the fundamentals and leave the "lag" analysis to Peter Kostis.


-JP

[ringin]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

You know, by now the golf swing has been so over analyzed that we are starting to point to things which occur naturally and are giving them some special meaning where none really exists.
I blame this on the advancements in high speed photography and the high resolution at which it's presented where we can now see ultra-slow-motion views of a players' knuckle hairs moving in the wind as he swings towards the ball.
I think the "lag" is one of those things that no one really cared much about until guys like Phil and Sergio were photographed in this new nose-hair resolution and someone said, "Wow! Look at that lag!" and then set about to figure out how that could be made important enough to write articles about.

Never mind that the greatest golfers in history had no more lag in their swings than that which was normally associated with a good golf swing, or that Tiger himself has a rather ordinary lag in his. No, Phil and Sergio have unusually pronounced lags so that must mean something. Of course the fact that Phil has only three majors in an almost twenty year career and Sergio has...well...none, or that the relatively lag-less Tiger has 13 in about half that time doesn't seem to matter.

I'm sure that when the lag has been talked to death, they'll come up with something else to analyze. One day, while watching the "Biz Hub, yadda, yadda, yadda...", someone will point out that on his downswing, Bubba Boom Boom demonstrated a rather pronounced flexing of his Obliquus capitis inferior muscle, and after they've explained to us just what that is, everyone will be on the phone to their personal trainers asking how they can get theirs to do that as well.

Your lag is YOUR LAG. Whether it's very pronounced or hardly noticeable, it is what it is and it happens naturally. Just work on the fundamentals and leave the "lag" analysis to Peter Kostis.


-JP

I do agree with you, but I'm concerned that I have a tendency to cast a bit, which results in poor ball striking and loss of power. I'd like to get the club to stay behind a little, (not as much as Phil), but I'm not exactly sure what I should work on to achieve this.

[JPsuff]

Originally Posted by ringin

I do agree with you, but I'm concerned that I have a tendency to cast a bit, which results in poor ball striking and loss of power. I'd like to get the club to stay behind a little, (not as much as Phil), but I'm not exactly sure what I should work on to achieve this.

The simplest way to get rid of a cast that I know of is to hold a golf glove under your right armpit (if you're a right-handed player) and hit balls like that. Go through the entire swing without allowing the glove to fall out.

Go through a bucket of balls like that and you'll get rid of your cast.

That's a drill that's been around for as long as people have been playing this game and the reason why it's lasted so long is because it works.


-JP

[ringin]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

The simplest way to get rid of a cast that I know of is to hold a golf glove under your right armpit (if you're a right-handed player) and hit balls like that. Go through the entire swing without allowing the glove to fall out.

Go through a bucket of balls like that and you'll get rid of your cast.

That's a drill that's been around for as long as people have been playing this game and the reason why it's lasted so long is because it works.


-JP

Cool, I actually used that drill a while back to help get rid of a slight over the top move that I had developed. It might be creeping back in so I'll try it again and see if helps me get my hands a little more inside and through the ball better.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by ringin

I've been thinking about my swing and I really wish I was generating more lag to harness some extra power. Being a lefty, I look to Phil's swing quite often for inspiration and he generates an INSANE amount of lag. I definitely don't want to get the club back past parallel like he does, but I could use some drills to get that whip. I know these guys are professionals, and I don't expect to duplicate their results, but I'd like to work on this. Any thoughts or suggestions.

Take a look at what I mean... YouTube - Phil Mickelson Driver SwingVision (Face On)

We generate more lag by leading our downswing with hips. The more hip lead, the more lag. Lag and late release are NOT done consciously with arm or hand action.

Watch Hogan demonstrate. YouTube - Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Larry

[alangbaker]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

We generate more lag by leading our downswing with hips. The more hip lead, the more lag. Lag and late release are NOT done consciously with arm or hand action.

Watch Hogan demonstrate. YouTube - Ben Hogan Golf Swing

Larry

Hogan would seem to disagree:

'In Five Lessons Hogan makes a very interesting statement about the hands, a comment to which I referred earlier. "As far as applying power goes, I wish that I had three right hands," he writes.'

[ringin]

So if my swing is on the proper plane and the hips start first, then the hands / arms will follow, and that's where the lag is created? If you get the hips to far ahead, and you don't have quick enough hands, isn't there a tendency to have an open clubface at impact? Which means you really have to "flip" the hands through impact..and I've always been told that getting the hands over active is a bad thing.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by ringin

So if my swing is on the proper plane and the hips start first, then the hands / arms will follow, and that's where the lag is created? If you get the hips to far ahead, and you don't have quick enough hands, isn't there a tendency to have an open clubface at impact? Which means you really have to "flip" the hands through impact..and I've always been told that getting the hands over active is a bad thing.

Hogan (and every good player) will tell you that it is impossible to throw the hips around too fast. When you create your front leg "post," your hips pull your shoulders around and if you made a correct backswing (with arms in sync with your chest) your arms and club will be whipped around perfectly, almost can't miss.

It is FAR, FAR better to err on the side of hip/leg action and weight shift than to lag back and repeatedly slice, then develop hand action compensations to counteract slice-- an error to compensate for an error-- the golf swing of 99% of amateurs. Gary Player strongly advised every Amateur to walk over, do ANYTHING but lag back and slice.

Instead just learn to make the transition weight shift and keep the clubhead inside the target line--and hit them straight!! No hand action necessary, no "timing" necessary, and that is how every good player does it. Our game is about consistency-- repeatedly hitting fairways and greens.

Larry

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by alangbaker

Hogan would seem to disagree:

'In Five Lessons Hogan makes a very interesting statement about the hands, a comment to which I referred earlier. "As far as applying power goes, I wish that I had three right hands," he writes.'

The whole paragraph emphasizes that his right hand pushes ONLY when his hands are in front of his body, the last foot of the downswing.-- He also cautions that MOST amateurs destroy their golf swing with hand action too early.

Larry

[ringin]

My tendency is to either slide my hips a bit, instead of rotating and/or coming a little over the top and not bringing the club down in "the slot" as I like to call it. I don't do this all of the time, but I know if creeps into my swing now and again. I'm a 5 handicap, so I don't have many issues, and I'm not sure why I obsess over these small swing issues, but I'd really just like to bring the club down on that in to out path more consistently. I think if I can ingrain this move, I'll naturally pick up that lag and strike the ball better at the same time.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by ringin

My tendency is to either slide my hips a bit, instead of rotating and/or coming a little over the top and not bringing the club down in "the slot" as I like to call it. I don't do this all of the time, but I know if creeps into my swing now and again. I'm a 5 handicap, so I don't have many issues, and I'm not sure why I obsess over these small swing issues, but I'd really just like to bring the club down on that in to out path more consistently. I think if I can ingrain this move, I'll naturally pick up that lag and strike the ball better at the same time.

I think we can do nearly anything "inside our shoes" and get away with it--as long as we start with hips--not shoulders. A little sway is not bad--unless you let your hip go out over your shoe.

As you know, the common "death move" is lagging back. Amateurs should do ANYTHING but that!!! Move up and you can at least advance the ball. Advance the ball, hit it thin, skull it, and you can get it near the green and then up and down. But don't lag back and hit fat or slice it OB or into the trees. Lucky to make double.

Larry

[Bigvivec]

Loosen your grip and you will get more lag...

[Bulls9999]

Make sure you put a piece of string between the velcro of the glove and tie it around the button hole on your shirt/neck, so when it releases, you don't have to keep picking it up, lol. Been there, done that, got tired of bending down twice (glove and teeing the ball).

Originally Posted by JPsuff

The simplest way to get rid of a cast that I know of is to hold a golf glove under your right armpit (if you're a right-handed player) and hit balls like that. Go through the entire swing without allowing the glove to fall out.

Go through a bucket of balls like that and you'll get rid of your cast.

That's a drill that's been around for as long as people have been playing this game and the reason why it's lasted so long is because it works.


-JP

[alangbaker]

Originally Posted by larryrsf

The whole paragraph emphasizes that his right hand pushes ONLY when his hands are in front of his body, the last foot of the downswing.-- He also cautions that MOST amateurs destroy their golf swing with hand action too early.

Larry

What of it? You claimed that there is no conscious hand action and your sage-de-jour, Hogan, clearly disagrees 100%.

[Wazmankg]

Originally Posted by JPsuff

The simplest way to get rid of a cast that I know of is to hold a golf glove under your right armpit (if you're a right-handed player) and hit balls like that. Go through the entire swing without allowing the glove to fall out.

Go through a bucket of balls like that and you'll get rid of your cast.

That's a drill that's been around for as long as people have been playing this game and the reason why it's lasted so long is because it works.


-JP

Excellent advice. I've been having some OTT problems, especially with my longer clubs with of course longer swings. Yesterday towards the end of my round I remebered this drill and started concentrating on keeping that armpit together and immediately no more OTT. It's impossible to "cast" if you keep your right armpit in this position. It's my new swing thought anyway for my driver-4 iron. My backswing is much more abbreviated with my mid-short irons and I don't have the problem with them.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by alangbaker

What of it? You claimed that there is no conscious hand action and your sage-de-jour, Hogan, clearly disagrees 100%.

When you read his book you find that he states several times that hand action is poison- He further describes the correct golf swing to be the way we throw a heavy medicine ball sidearm- the lead hand leading and both arms and hands in front of the chest.

Hogan says best what every good instructor says-- that "lag" is generated by the body "leaving the clubhead behind." The hips turn toward the target ahead of the shoulders, the shoulders turn ahead of the arms, the arms and club then come along in sequence -- in a multiplying effect like popping a whip. Hogan says the ONLY way to mess it up is to apply hand action. Page 82, in all caps, "The action of the arms is motivated by the movement of the body and the hands consciously do NOTHING but maintain a firm grip on the club."

Percy Boomer talked about allowing the club to "flail" with loose arms and loose grip and allowing the body to lead the shoulders and arms. Bobby Jones described the same action differently-- Jack Nicklaus described his arm tension as like a "ragdoll" and Sam Snead said his grip pressure was "like you would hold a baby bird." but NO competent golf instruction has ever advised conscious hand action, timing a wrist set or release. That is poison-- And every competitive golfer hopes his next opponent is trying to do that.

Larry

[coralpro]

Originally Posted by Bigvivec

Loosen your grip and you will get more lag...

Simple but true.

[OnePutt]

Ringin; A few years ago I added an early wrist cock to my swing. The day I started doing this, I added 15 yards of carry with all my irons. I went from 135 yards to 150 yards with my 9 iron. It was that easy, and it's still working quite well. With the early wrist cock, I also get a later release, which is where the added distance is coming from. This may not be for you, but I'd recommend you try it for a bucket of range balls and see if it works for you or not. If it doesn't work for you, all you've lost is an hour and the price of a bucket of balls. Not a big deal, and well worth if to at least give a try.

[larryrsf]

Originally Posted by OnePutt

Ringin; A few years ago I added an early wrist cock to my swing. The day I started doing this, I added 15 yards of carry with all my irons. I went from 135 yards to 150 yards with my 9 iron. It was that easy, and it's still working quite well. With the early wrist cock, I also get a later release, which is where the added distance is coming from. This may not be for you, but I'd recommend you try it for a bucket of range balls and see if it works for you or not. If it doesn't work for you, all you've lost is an hour and the price of a bucket of balls. Not a big deal, and well worth if to at least give a try.

Good advice. The caution is that some people truncate their backswing turn when they set early. But if they can make an early set AND make a full shoulder turn, it is good fundamentals. Many great golfers set their wrist on the way down--basically "leaving the club behind" as they downswung-- Byron Nelson, Jack Nicklaus, et. al. But other greats set them early. The only thing that matters is the wrists do set fully and the shoulders do turn fully.

Larry