Can 2 club lengths for 'unplayable lie' go 'through a tree'?

[Bulls9999]

Just curious... from another jr. tournament this past week I noticed a rules official being summoned to the group in front of my son's group, near where I was standing. The young man had hit into a stand of trees short & right of the green (par 3) and his ball was on the right side of a very large (2-3 ft diameter?) tree, against root outcroppings. He elected to take an unplayable lie and was granted permission to measure 'through the tree', even though he couldn't put his club in the tree, they eyeballed the club held up against the tree, whereby the club was positioned parallel to the line of the ball going through the tree and where the club head would end up with if extending through the tree, then another club length from there, giving almost clear shot to the green. Going the other way simply would have been blocked by more trees, or going back on a line from the hole further into the trees as well.

I couldn't find the section of rules that allows this.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Just curious... from another jr. tournament this past week I noticed a rules official being summoned to the group in front of my son's group, near where I was standing. The young man had hit into a stand of trees short & right of the green (par 3) and his ball was on the right side of a very large (2-3 ft diameter?) tree, against root outcroppings. He elected to take an unplayable lie and was granted permission to measure 'through the tree', even though he couldn't put his club in the tree, they eyeballed the club held up against the tree, whereby the club was positioned parallel to the line of the ball going through the tree and where the club head would end up with if extending through the tree, then another club length from there, giving almost clear shot to the green. Going the other way simply would have been blocked by more trees, or going back on a line from the hole further into the trees as well.

I couldn't find the section of rules that allows this.

Yes. Two clublengths is a straight line distance between two points, not a physical requirement for measuring. The only thing that needs to be ensured is that you drop within that distance. If you can meet that need just by estimating it, you don't actually need to measure at all. The only time that measurement is really needed is when you are dropping near the limits of the 2 clublengths, or there is some other potential for doubt that the drop is a legal one.

Also, in taking relief from an obstruction you can measure your one clublength from the nearest point of relief back across or through the obstruction as long as the drop ultimately meets the parameters laid out in the rules.

[Texas Wedge]

Okay, so I have a question related to unplayable lies, too. Can you take an unplayable lie from a hazard? For example, I was playing a course yesterday that had water in front of the green. Naturally, I hit the tree and dropped down into the mud and buried. From there, I saw no red stakes or paint to signify a hazard, but you obviously KNOW it's a hazard. So can I take a two club length drop back out of the mud and play from there? Or would I be required to use a different rule? If so, would I have to treat it as a water hazard even though there wasn't really any water where my ball was and just drop behind the nearest point of entry?

[Fourputt]

If the ball is unplayable in a hazard, you have to proceed under Rule 26 (Water hazard) and drop outside of the hazard. You can't drop in the hazard in such a case.

[atticusfinch]

Originally Posted by Bulls9999

Just curious... from another jr. tournament this past week I noticed a rules official being summoned to the group in front of my son's group, near where I was standing. The young man had hit into a stand of trees short & right of the green (par 3) and his ball was on the right side of a very large (2-3 ft diameter?) tree, against root outcroppings. He elected to take an unplayable lie and was granted permission to measure 'through the tree', even though he couldn't put his club in the tree, they eyeballed the club held up against the tree, whereby the club was positioned parallel to the line of the ball going through the tree and where the club head would end up with if extending through the tree, then another club length from there, giving almost clear shot to the green. Going the other way simply would have been blocked by more trees, or going back on a line from the hole further into the trees as well.

I couldn't find the section of rules that allows this.

A basic rule for rules interpretation is whether the rules prohibit this. what the riules do not prohibit, they allow.

[Fileygolfer]

Originally Posted by Texas Wedge

Okay, so I have a question related to unplayable lies, too. Can you take an unplayable lie from a hazard? For example, I was playing a course yesterday that had water in front of the green. Naturally, I hit the tree and dropped down into the mud and buried. From there, I saw no red stakes or paint to signify a hazard, but you obviously KNOW it's a hazard. So can I take a two club length drop back out of the mud and play from there? Or would I be required to use a different rule? If so, would I have to treat it as a water hazard even though there wasn't really any water where my ball was and just drop behind the nearest point of entry?

You ask one question here but then give an example that gives your question TWO answers.

1. You CAN'T deem a ball unplayable in a Water Hazard. (Rule 28)

2. You can deem a ball unplayable in a Bunker but must drop it in that Bunker or go back to the point you last played from.

Rule 33-2a states that the Committe MUST clearly define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards.
In your example this has not been done so you could argue that it is infact Casual Water and you get Free Relief under Rule 25 at the nearest point of relief.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fileygolfer

You ask one question here but then give an example that gives your question TWO answers.

1. You CAN'T deem a ball unplayable in a Water Hazard. (Rule 28)

2. You can deem a ball unplayable in a Bunker but must drop it in that Bunker or go back to the point you last played from.

Rule 33-2a states that the Committe MUST clearly define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards.
In your example this has not been done so you could argue that it is infact Casual Water and you get Free Relief under Rule 25 at the nearest point of relief.

See Decision 26/3: If it is clearly a permanent water course, even if there is currently no water present, it is still a water hazard. If it is unmarked then you have to use your judgment as whether it's location would make it a water hazard or a lateral water hazard. No permanent body of water on the course is casual water, although an artificial pool or fountain could be an obstruction.

The Decision:

26/3 Unmarked Water Hazard

Q. An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left-hand margin is out of bounds. Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b. A player’s ball comes to rest in the ditch. Is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?

A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to define accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards — see Rule 33-2a. However, if the Committee has not done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i).